00:00:00:43 - 00:00:35:36 Michael Gewecke Welcome, everybody. I think we're to get going here, as is as is our practice. We have more content than we have time, so we're going to jump right into it. Although today I wasn't the preacher, so I'm not going to accept responsibility. All right. If you remember, today is our last day that we're going to focus on history and then we're going to pivot for the following and the remaining three weeks and we're going to be talking about the practical, sort of more personal implementation of what it looks like and what we want to be thinking about in terms of evangelism. 00:00:35:36 - 00:01:00:18 Michael Gewecke But today, we're going to be finishing out what I'm going to call the modern era of missions. And I'm just going to say as sort of a little bit of a conditional state at the front, I'm aware that there's both pros and cons of engaging with something that's actually in our life experience. On one hand, I probably shouldn't be talking about this because you're all experts in a sense of what modern mission looks like. 00:01:00:19 - 00:01:21:58 Michael Gewecke You've participated in some way. You may have given financial donation, you may have actually participating, going on a trip to a different place. You may have known a missionary who served life long in another location. So you have personal experience, and that brings with it the kind of richness. And I want to certainly keep that in mind in our conversation. 00:01:22:03 - 00:01:41:02 Michael Gewecke Maybe the temptation of knowing something is you might expect it to be something, or it may be hard to see some of the negatives of that thing when you when you know so much about it. So I'm going to also share some things that have been reflected upon as some possible weaknesses or downsides from the modern mission movement. 00:01:41:16 - 00:02:01:59 Michael Gewecke And I'll try to do that in a way that's accessible. We can have a conversation about it, but I don't mean it to be a negative. I just simply mean it to be looking ahead. I will want to have some conversations in the in the church as to the best way to be faithful in our mission on today to try to control the scope of our conversation. 00:02:02:04 - 00:02:29:29 Michael Gewecke I wanted to use a particular example of Presbyterian mission as sort of an example of a type of the whole. The truth is, the reality is the Baptists have an unbelievable mission apparatus that they have been utilizing effectively for over 200 years. The truth is the Methodists have been doing an amazing amount of international mission since the beginning of the 1900s onward. 00:02:29:29 - 00:02:54:09 Michael Gewecke So Presbyterians don't sit in kind of privileged location in terms of mission that the Protestant church has done an unbelievable amount of missionary work around the world. But I want to share with you a particular example of the Presbyterian commitment to mission, because I think it exemplifies what many of those groups have done in the course of those years. 00:02:54:14 - 00:03:23:45 Michael Gewecke And I was specifically want to look at the Presbyterian missionary work in Korea as an example of this. I don't know. Did any of you know that Presbyterians have a very storied history of mission work in Korea? Some do. You might know or that might be new and interesting information to you actually, in the Presbyterian Church USA, in the national sort of American Presbyterian Church, really, we do have some African-American congregations. 00:03:23:45 - 00:03:49:08 Michael Gewecke And in fact, we partnered with one of them for several of our youth mission trips when we were in Jamaica, Queens. But the greatest diverse group of American Presbyterian is ism. Yes, the Korean Presbyterian Church in the United States, in fact, is large enough that they have their own non geographic presbytery, so they have their own sort of enough churches that they can have their own governing bodies. 00:03:49:22 - 00:04:12:44 Michael Gewecke And I went to seminary with a number of students who were going into serve Korean Presbyterian churches. They're incredibly vibrant and their life filled and they're an amazing testament to a lot of the work done by Korean missionaries in Korea. So it's an incredible historical story intrusion to give you sort of a pass at it. Yes, we have. 00:04:12:49 - 00:04:39:10 Michael Gewecke Let me get the right place in my notes here. Okay. So you have essentially the beginning of the 1900s, late 1800s, Presbyterians deciding that we wanted to be active in world missions. So part of that conversation, we would send a person and we generally in the beginning didn't call them a missionary. We generally sent a doctor or a teacher and we would send them to a country. 00:04:39:10 - 00:05:06:34 Michael Gewecke So what happened was in Korea, we last sent someone in Moore, they went and they went as a Presbyterian. Then they went and they began working in a local school there. And as they began teaching some of like Western history and literature and those kinds of things, and as time went on, they actually began to make an impact all the way up to at the time in Korea, they had they still had a royal court, they still had a king. 00:05:06:39 - 00:05:34:49 Michael Gewecke And so that began to get noted. And so ultimately, building relationship and trust over time, this individual, this Presbyterian minister, was allowed to start a hospital and began bringing in other Presbyterian doctors from the United States, where they began teaching some of that medical practice right there in Korea. Well, as that continued to grow, they brought in more and more missionaries, and then they began a school. 00:05:34:49 - 00:05:56:18 Michael Gewecke And that began as a secondary, like a high school type program. And then as that went on, it became the first and I actually learned this this week, the longest running Western college in the entire nation of Korea. You can apply and go to this college today that was started by Presbyterian ministers. Now we can talk to you. 00:05:56:18 - 00:06:24:25 Michael Gewecke Actually, it's very interesting. These two Presbyterian ministers who went there began missionaries. They're actually both buried in Korea. Interestingly, there's only a few select foreigners who are buried in Korea, but there's a special cemetery reserved for them. Ran of them was notable for having said that he would rather be buried in Korea than in the halls of Notre Dame, which I thought was a quite an interesting statement for a missionary to make. 00:06:24:30 - 00:06:45:51 Michael Gewecke The reason I'm sharing this with you is quite simple. We're going to get to the end of this. I'm going to talk with you about the strategies of modern mission, the different ways that different missionaries sought to do their work in the 21st century 20th century. But the reality is the way that Presbyterians have tended to focus on mission has begun with education. 00:06:45:55 - 00:07:17:02 Michael Gewecke And that makes sense. If you know our culture where people the book, if you've ever been in where prospects really worship service, you know that there are times that we venture into higher intellectual kind of conversation. That is because of a higher historical value in which we believe a full on, uncompromising study of Scripture is the basis of discipleship that we need to understand as best as we can who Jesus was and what you taught and what the scriptural authors meant. 00:07:17:02 - 00:07:35:54 Michael Gewecke And all of these things. And so Presbyterians we have begun in the United States by starting schools, right? We were very forceful in terms of our own nation in terms of public education, in terms of teaching people so that they can read scripture. But that is so held around the world. And Korea is a great example of this. 00:07:35:58 - 00:07:59:22 Michael Gewecke The idea was we need to have a presence in that nation so that we could teach others so that first we could translate the scriptures and then they would be able to read them themselves and that led to what is, I think, another very common form of Presbyterian evangelism in the 20th century was we began hospitals. The Presbyterian hospitals all throughout the United States. 00:07:59:27 - 00:08:47:47 Michael Gewecke Many of them remain Presbyterian in name and not in actual connection there. Now, their own bodies. But in our mission effort, we would often go places and Presbyterians think people who valued education often had doctors who were willing and able to go do that work and so they would go begin and serve, share that that effort wherever they went On that the point that I share this with you is, is to say that we are in our Presbyterian formed somewhat unique because as the the 1900 saw proceeded on, nations like Africa, Presbyterians became very active in like water ministries or crop ministries or the kind of food supply type ministries, Presbyterians, as the year went 00:08:47:47 - 00:09:12:21 Michael Gewecke on. And now I believe we're actually seeing a transformation in some of the Presbyterian world Mission emphasized. The denomination is beginning to begin shifting away from some of that into what they would call justice ministries, where they're seeking to serve in other nations. I'm speaking to either economic injustice or racial injustice, those kinds of things nationwide. But sorry, internationally. 00:09:12:21 - 00:09:50:58 Michael Gewecke The point I want to make is we tended to focus upon how we could utilize either intellectual capability or physical capability to help nations and peoples. And then that creates an opportunity to be able to have conversations about the faith in the 21st century, especially what mission are also often included from different spiritual groups, say a methodist or a Baptist would be more likely to go into a place and to be less fixated on a kind of idea of like revival, that having a large tent gathering, gathering people and having a revivalist type movement. 00:09:51:12 - 00:10:17:51 Michael Gewecke Maybe you would do that through a tent or like you would go community, that community. There are some that would be more. And we did have some of this where a mission, a national missionary organization, would go into a place and they would build a missionary compound. They would build like a house. And then when they would use that as a center of sort of different social goods, they would bring in food or they would have classes and then they would bring people in. 00:10:17:51 - 00:10:56:39 Michael Gewecke And the idea was that you would kind of create like a small little beach front and that place where the Methodist so the Presbyterian would voice would sort of be heard. One of the critiques of the 20th century mission that has sort of become prominent, the latter part is certainly the 21st century has been this question raised by Missy ologist is to what extent we were responsible for proclaiming the gospel in another country and to what extent we were participating in sort of spreading Western culture in other places. 00:10:56:43 - 00:11:19:01 Michael Gewecke And that's a tricky there's no easy way the dividing line between those two things, because it turns out the people bringing the gospel were Westerners, right? So you can't separate yourself from that conversation. But it is a real temptation that that you go to another place and you say, we invite you to hear the truth of the gospel, as told by the Presbyterian family oilman. 00:11:19:01 - 00:11:42:58 Michael Gewecke By the way, next Sunday we expect you you're wearing Presbyterian dress and and we might laugh at that. But that's not just a thing that was suggested. That was demanded. In fact, there were times where, yes, we would go have a missionary in Africa. There were times where the expectation early in the 20th century was we're going to bring in clothes so that you can dress properly for worship. 00:11:43:03 - 00:12:10:07 Michael Gewecke Now, to be charitable, the idea was this is, in our culture, an appropriate way to dress for worship. So a spirit of that, if you're going to be positive, might be trying to pass that idea along to others. But a few years down the road, we might admit that expecting another culture to dress properly for worship and not understand their own cultural dress code is missing the mark. 00:12:10:12 - 00:12:44:57 Michael Gewecke Right. And so the different groups of different time would make this case that we have to sort of divide between the idea of Western ism and then the idea of what we would call the Michaux day. Well, the mission of God and on the right you have the fact that Christianity is by its nature, evangelistic religion. And so if you hear atheists and skeptics, that's generally the thing that roils them the most as Christians can't keep their mouths shut. 00:12:45:01 - 00:13:09:00 Michael Gewecke That's built into who we are. If you heard the good news of Jesus Christ, the expectation is that you share that I'm sure that you all realize there are some major modern religions. In fact, the if you were to be a Jew today, one of the core cultural values of Judaism is you are welcome to learn about it, but we're not going to talk to you about it, not by definition or by value evangelistic people. 00:13:09:00 - 00:13:30:55 Michael Gewecke I'm not saying that there's not evangelistic Jews, but not not in the way that Christianity is. It built into our faith. And so at the fundamental level, right. The question is, are you possessed, spitting in the mission of God in the world letter or are you spreading a cultural preconceived idea of what that mission should look like and of course, there's no simple answer to that. 00:13:31:06 - 00:13:54:57 Michael Gewecke And people write lots of books, and that's an important conversation to have when you're thinking about modern mission. The reason I share that at the end of this conversation, yes, because we have a very troubled past in navigating. I don't know if you know this, it's a very disturbing conversation, and I'm not necessarily encouraging you to look it up. 00:13:54:57 - 00:14:21:04 Michael Gewecke But the Episcopal is, which are a Protestant branch of the church they've just recently had to be dealing with. There was a a school set up in Canada that was a mission school. It was a mission outpost for Native Americans. And unfortunately, the historical record seems to show that there are thousands of Native American kids that were sent to this mission school and died and were buried and never sent back home. 00:14:21:09 - 00:14:42:52 Michael Gewecke Some of that due to the fact that those kids didn't convert. And it's a very troubling historical story. I certainly encourage you if I Google search for Episcopal Church Mission School, we'll bring it out. But I share this as a real life example. The idea was we need to help teach these kids how to read English. We need to teach them how to read the Bible. 00:14:42:52 - 00:15:15:56 Michael Gewecke We need to teach them how to be Christian. And somewhere along that journey, it ended with those hidden lives being ended as a disturbing path. Right. And unfortunately, it's happened numerous times throughout history. And so Christians have to confront this this difficult conversation about where to speak, the good news of Jesus Christ and work hard to know when our own sinfulness is getting in the way with a long historical track record of not getting that right. 00:15:16:01 - 00:15:34:48 Michael Gewecke And that's different when I'm out when we live in the next three weeks. So we're talking about, Hey, Christians, do we even have a saying? If so, if your faith is called to account, do you have that? Do you have a faith to speak about, to do out words, to describe that faith? Clearly, the critique I'm offering here is not about that. 00:15:34:55 - 00:16:10:16 Michael Gewecke Right? It's not about you're witness to the faith. It is to say that what the Protestant church did for the last 200 years was historically unique. I want to make this clear. The Catholic Church has been sending priests for literally 2000 years around the world. Sometimes they've been doing that intentionally. They've been calling priests to go. And that's not always great, because I think you all know that Christopher Columbus brought priests with him, and sometimes those priests were actually part and parcel to some of the really negative things that happened at the hand of the Spanish conquistadors. 00:16:10:21 - 00:16:34:23 Michael Gewecke So it's not always a positive in other places like Benedict that he wasn't sent by any organization. He went he felt they call the mission. He when he started what was one of the largest church renewals in the history of the entire Christian church. And he did under the name of Mission and Benedict the Benedictine Order, which still exists in the Catholic Church, is one of the most prominent mission organizations in the Catholic Church today. 00:16:34:28 - 00:17:03:21 Michael Gewecke So it's restricted. I remember saying good, bad, it's either quite right. And ultimately, I think the question that the modern church is going to have to ask is how do we navigate our theology of mission such that it honors the deepest truth of the faith that I feel living in an increasingly globalized world and increasingly aware of cultural difference and the awareness of a one where we're all buried. 00:17:03:21 - 00:17:35:40 Michael Gewecke Or is it just the definition of the people? Right? You talk about Africa. I know you've kept with all the conversations about. Well, yes, 14 people of groups that live in one nation. How do you treat that, that the modern mis geologists are trying to take seriously how the gospel engages people, not just nation states and some of them, but the modern mission project was this sort of this huge mechanism that that poor, unbelievable never before seen amounts of money and time and effort in doing this mission work. 00:17:35:45 - 00:18:06:15 Michael Gewecke And now we look back on it and see well, I don't know if you know this, the fastest growing Presbyterian church in the world at church. I mean that not as an individual church. I mean, that is like that group of churches is in Africa, in fact, that the rate of growth in the places where Protestants sent missionaries, a reasonable numerical account would have that they will outnumber the the the churches that sent missionaries to them within our life span. 00:18:06:19 - 00:18:37:08 Michael Gewecke And I just won't make that clear. It's likely that we're going to have African Presbyterian missionaries sent to countries like the United States, which I think, by the way, is amazing. Thanks be to God, right. And there has something to teach us about the faith that we that we just want to see from our plight. So this is the amazing good news of Jesus Christ, is that that there's more to the revelation than can be contained at any one time or place. 00:18:37:21 - 00:19:16:10 Michael Gewecke And so the problem, though, with that and then I want to turn to some conversation, but before I turn to some of the larger philosophy of mission is just are we humble enough to accept our place in that story? Right. Are we humble enough as Christians to to believe that we have something to learn? Because if we believe that modern mission is something like if we make the mistake and I don't think we often make this mistake, but at our worst, if we make the mistake of thinking like when we when we go into mission, it's like we're Nike and we're we're exporting Nike shoes to the Web, like the Nike brand. 00:19:16:10 - 00:19:43:19 Michael Gewecke Let's get every country they have Nike And well, then we would think we're the only ones with Nike, we're the only ones with the brand. But that's not that's not mission. Well, when we bring the living spirit of Jesus Christ and we are witnesses to it in another place, and then there it was. People hear the gospel and it renews and transforms them and they bring the Christian faith into their own life and context, very often literally bring Jesus back to us. 00:19:43:33 - 00:20:24:47 Michael Gewecke And it will be a new understanding for us. And I hope that we're humble enough to receive that. I hope that we're humble enough to be open to that. But the mainline church will struggle with that, I think, because their growth may appear to be at our expense, because that's a tough thing to process. Right? The churches that were sending missionaries out right now, our national missionary organization, continues to decrease the number of missionaries that we send around the world, and that that's a grief filled process where other places around the world are building new seminaries so they can train people to go into the ministry. 00:20:24:52 - 00:20:52:57 Michael Gewecke So some of that's dealing with our own emotional response to let's have this difficult. The most dangerous prayer is Lord God, what you ask of me. Yeah, the most dangerous prayer is for revival, because what if God asks you to be revived, right? Whether God asks you to confront the reality of your brokenness and to give account to the Gospel of those surrounding you, and and to sacrifice that just by sacrifice. 00:20:52:57 - 00:21:23:01 Michael Gewecke I think that's I agree with you completely. I think the the beautiful reminder to me is that the church among our scriptures were written at a time in which the church was actively meeting in tombs to avoid being found by the government that they met under. And that was among the most effective periods of church missionary work in the history of the world. 00:21:23:06 - 00:21:50:48 Michael Gewecke And I just think there's something about the awareness that that being called to be revived. What often happens in an environment of difficulty and struggle and instead of receiving moments of difficulty and struggle with resistance, I think there's an opportunity in that to say, thank you, God, for an incubator of the good news. That's a hard prayer. I think it's a I think it's an important one. 00:21:50:52 - 00:22:13:22 Michael Gewecke Personally, this is just completely my opinion. I'm unbelievably excited about the next 50 years of mission in the United States. I'm thrilled about it. I think the mainline church does not have a good statistical future ahead of it, like in terms of number of churches and in terms of names on signs and those, we're going to have some very troubled ground to walk. 00:22:13:24 - 00:22:40:57 Michael Gewecke A certain. Yeah, I mean, the Presbyterian Church USA not to be too blunt, is unlikely to exist by that name by by my retirement. Should I make it so that time I mean that that's a tough thing. That's a tough reality to process. But at our current rate of decline, it's unlikely that the systems and structures of the denomination are both financially and also and more importantly, that a capital of time energy ability. 00:22:40:57 - 00:23:08:40 Michael Gewecke We don't have the people to do what we've always done. So there will be Presbyterians. They may gather under a different name, they may gather with the Methodists in a new formation, whatever will look like. I don't I don't see that. The point is, though, I don't think there's ever been a better time for mainline thinking Christian, who cared deeply about the faith and cared deeply about the preservation of of the truth and the gospel. 00:23:08:45 - 00:23:38:24 Michael Gewecke We live in a culture that's desperately yearning for something more real than just social media clickbait. We have that, but we have a deep mystical tradition, a deep connection to this, this and that belief that Jesus Christ the Bishop. The sermon today has revealed himself. And that's unbelievably exciting. And I think there's a human there's a whole contingent in generation that will continue to be imaginative and creative and spirit and power this as they seek to live that out. 00:23:38:29 - 00:24:03:30 Michael Gewecke But that I think it will by definition, transform our understanding to keep this conversation to mission. We will not have the apparatus to do mission as we did from 1900 to 2000. We won't have the money. We won't have the people trained in the same way. But that's fine, right? Just because it was that way for some time doesn't mean it was going to be that way forever. 00:24:03:30 - 00:24:30:15 Michael Gewecke We will continue to do mission. That's what it means to be the people that. So I'm Sally. I'm excited. I have to always start these conversations admitting Greece, right? I mean, because for a lot of us that this is a very painful way to get to the next faithful proclamation of the gospel is to see some of the structures that we built to struggle under the weight of that. 00:24:30:19 - 00:24:57:52 Michael Gewecke This is the modern Western problem is because everyone in a world of ideological precision, specificity, whether a I have I have friends who couldn't be in the same room together because of their ideology. Right? They couldn't they couldn't figure out a way to translate, not yet at least they can't figure out how the way to translate to each other. 00:24:57:57 - 00:25:28:15 Michael Gewecke Though Bell claimed the mantra of persecution because persecution is a in the modern in our in our world, in which, quite frankly, we are protected from a kind of persecution that still exists in much of the world where Christians like, literally are found and killed. They're brought outside their church and they are they their life is ended because we we don't have that experience in our context. 00:25:28:15 - 00:26:04:51 Michael Gewecke I think we have people who experience, well, if negative things happen, I attribute that to persecution for fill in the blank. I have to go back historically to help me here. The early church was persecuted because they claim that they were worshiping the Savior Jesus Christ. Do you know what the Roman emperor insisted that he be called Savior Lord, that you were to address the Emperor as Lord, which means that the Emperor is the supreme Divine being? 00:26:05:06 - 00:26:43:28 Michael Gewecke Why weren't Roman Christians persecuted? Because they threatened the leadership of the Caesar IV, the governing power of the world. I would make a case, Mike, that we could have a robust conversation and we might even find disagreement on this. I would argue that Christians have always been a very unreliable partner for the powers of the world. I think we at our best, we are always unreliable because the moment that the power of the wed says I am living is the moment Christians say, No, you're not right. 00:26:43:33 - 00:27:06:15 Michael Gewecke And and different people, I think to our credit, have really, really leaned into navigating that. In a modern world, we don't have a Caesar who rules with that might that it does seem that there are some countries in the world that might want to think that they do. I mean, not to be political, but Putin certainly seems to think and behave in a way that seems very much as if that authority is invested in him. 00:27:06:16 - 00:27:27:18 Michael Gewecke Sighing, although that's entirely gone from our world. But but it does seem that foreign people have said, we understand that the power of a democratic society is that the people vote, that we all share some kind of power in that, and that changes the Christian understanding of what it means to be checks and balances in a system. Right. 00:27:27:23 - 00:27:55:09 Michael Gewecke But then once again, why would Christians in America be persecuted? Is not in my view, it's an important question, but not a simple question to answer. Right. Because there are some Christians who think they are persecuted because they don't buy Starbucks or whatever that will blow up ones over time. Like I would respectfully suggest that anything involving Starbucks is not persecution. 00:27:55:13 - 00:28:34:32 Michael Gewecke Right? Right. Like doing Well, it's not like that. That to me seems like Christians trying to navigate an economic space conversation. And that's a difficult for anyone. That said, there is likely a day in which Christians claim in the United States, I mean, I not to make a prediction, but there's likely that Christians claim in the United States, I believe that Jesus Christ died, was resurrected, and that his spirit continues to live and embody my sense of service and self-giving and sacrifice in the world. 00:28:34:37 - 00:28:58:40 Michael Gewecke And that may result in that right, whatever that would appear to be, whether that be that does not appear to be honest right now, the protections from the pope. But these kinds of things, they remain intact, right? We don't. We don't. Right now worry about what that is. But in this state of hundreds of years and thousands of years throughout history, every major nation has had this transformation. 00:28:58:51 - 00:29:31:28 Michael Gewecke You know, like so vast to think that that will be different year, maybe a little bit of historical, if not arrogant naivete. Right. So, like when that day comes, Christian will experience what we see classically in Scripture as persecution, where one's life, as, you know, what a martyr needs. Mark Miler in Greek means. Witness Well, the idea was when Stephen died at the hands of stoning was life was his witness. 00:29:31:33 - 00:29:55:28 Michael Gewecke So, so to a point like when we talk about persecution, the thing that seems slippery to me about that is when I look at Christian history and the people who gave witness to the faith with literally their life, I think we have to we have to answer that line that that cell line, that thing that they offer as witness is substantially different than anything in my 36 year old. 00:29:55:28 - 00:30:30:45 Michael Gewecke I know I'm dating myself. I'm a child. My 36 year married life. I have never experienced anything even remotely similar quality. I've been uncomfortable. I felt I felt out of place. I have felt white culture has been hostile, but that I cannot compare those two things. And I hope because I think that you would be naive to think that any Christian at any time or place living the faith does not have to wrestle with that real reality. 00:30:30:49 - 00:31:04:14 Michael Gewecke I, I think of a person who is haunting to me is Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I don't know if you read Dietrich Bonhoeffer, life together would be a great work if you have I'm he's not perfect individual and unfortunately some take up a banner of a person and say hey look you know you're now he's a human now turns out that Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a pastor to the Roman guards that shot him the way have historical accounts of him counseling pastorally counseling the people who were called to take his life. 00:31:04:19 - 00:31:26:36 Michael Gewecke And I sincerely hope that if I was in a nation in which the church was called to leave behind the proclamation of the Gospel, then I have a proclamation of Nazi ism, which happened historically. I'm not I'm not German. Sure. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yes, That's why I met the German church. Yeah, I would be very clear. 00:31:26:36 - 00:31:54:21 Michael Gewecke I'm talking about the historical background. I'm not talking about the people comfortable about talking about that. I'm not talking about that. So I'm not comfortable making those direct connection. But but I think that the the idea that that Bonhoeffer and others in the Confessing Church said we refuse to allow the political order, the political military order to determine what the church should and shouldn't proclaim this gospel when that cost him his life. 00:31:54:34 - 00:32:16:37 Michael Gewecke I sincerely hope that I would have the wisdom and courage to be able to understand that, number one, and to be willing to pay that price. Number two, and to be honest with you, that's a troubling question for my character. I sincerely hope that that would be true. But there's a real part of me that if I'm honest with you, I'm afraid it wouldn't be. 00:32:16:42 - 00:32:33:37 Michael Gewecke I'm I'm afraid I would be subject to that, Forces says. I'd just prefer leave me in my church. I'm going to go take some country church in Northwest Iowa. We're all going to hide out there and I'm going to do my thing. And you just leave me alone. Like now I get to live out my life and see my grandkids. 00:32:33:49 - 00:33:03:24 Michael Gewecke Like I kind of unionize. I mean, I think in the realm of rhetoric and ideology, when we start talking about things like the persecution of the church, but it's easy to get philosophically clear. I think it's very different to be humanly clear, like, am I willing to give my life as witness to the state that I believe in the in the real belief that resurrection is God's estimate word to humanity? 00:33:03:28 - 00:33:32:34 Michael Gewecke I sincerely pray that that if that choice is put in front of me, that I have the courage of Spirit and the Holy Spirit to do that. So I'll. And because I Clint's going to make fun of me again. But I interestingly, it's so weird when in this conversation I'm not going to end it with scripture, but I mean, I did it with Pixar, so I'm sorry, Pixar's an animation studio that makes movies that people think about as kids movies, but had this golden era. 00:33:32:49 - 00:34:07:51 Michael Gewecke And one of their one of their guiding minds is I think, an expert storyteller. And I read a book by his son and by him, and he said, the thing that's that stuck with me. He said, I never want to write a story that I tell other people is good. I want the story to be good enough that they tell each other that it's good and the compelling thing in that is because fundamentally, as a preacher, I'm committed to the idea of telling the good news, which is a human, an imperfect human, telling of a perfect divine reality. 00:34:07:52 - 00:34:35:40 Michael Gewecke Right? I sincerely hope that the gospel lives in my life is so compelling that others see it's good news without me needing to tell them that it is. And the way that this connects to your story is I think we are given the resource of people's skepticism to prove them wrong. I think because of the assumption that Christians are closed minded, judgmental and hopeless. 00:34:35:40 - 00:34:56:22 Michael Gewecke Lee Prideful individuals, when we show up in that room with people every time. Now this is teasing to the next three weeks. So I love that this transition exists here. I want to encourage us to to consider every time we encounter someone who believes that about us, we we don't we don't need to talk them out of it. 00:34:56:27 - 00:35:17:29 Michael Gewecke We need to prove them wrong. And I hate to break it in the room, but there are a lot of Christians who prove that belief, right? And so we have to we have to wrestle with that. We have to wrestle with. We're not here to struggle against flesh and blood. We we're not here to fight whatever this thing is in culture, I don't think. 00:35:17:29 - 00:35:35:04 Michael Gewecke And we'll get to the conversation. You can all disagree with me and that'll be really helpful, is you'll you'll teach me. I think what we will have is this reality that when we proclaim Jesus Christ dead and resurrected, that means something for how we live and that will transform us such that they should see the good news in us. 00:35:35:04 - 00:35:40:52 Michael Gewecke And when they do, that's our wit. All right. I'm sorry. I'd love to hear more conversation. We'll come back to it.