Faith Fights: Worship

Hey everybody, welcome back to the pastor talk podcast
We are thrilled to be in conversation with you again today
And I think I’m pretty excited about the topic we’re turning to today
We’ve dealt with some conflicts in the church that has dealt with some stuff
That’s been either pretty heady theological stuff or historical things and today we shift gears as we begin to talk about
Some of the Christian fights over worship and Clint
You know, I’ve got to think that there’s probably not a topic that we could more relate to as Christians in our own time and place
Yeah, I don’t know what it says that the more practical conversation is the fights
We’ve had over what happens in the sanctuary,
but historically I think this is something that people will have a connection with
You know, very few of us are going to feel ourselves deeply ingrained in the arguments
We’ve been covering even the Reformation arguments
But I suspect that nearly everyone listening is going to have some moment where they were in a church that
Squabbled over something that did or didn’t happen in worship and really when it comes to worship
We have been able to fight about just about every
aspect of it, I mean we
Really what happens in the sanctuary there’s almost none of it has been off-limits to some
Conflict and some controversy and I would say Michael that on the whole
My experience of worship battles have been that they are not theological in the sense that they’re not part of an a
systematic thoughtful case They generally have to do with our comfort level and our personal preferences.
Yeah, I think that’s right Clint
And you know, we’re not going to spend time looking backwards today church history and historic fights
I do think it’s worth saying as we enter into that conversation
That there have been fights about worship as long as there has been Christians and that is important
I think because it on one hand it grounds us in the reality that we’re not different
We don’t live in a different time and we just suddenly started fighting about worship
There’s been a lot of thought about this distinction that you just make there’s been a lot of people who’ve given time and attention to
How do we separate between the theological substance of what we do in worship and why it’s important and how we stay connected to it?
And where are we starting to stray into areas more like well
I like it this way or I prefer that worship has it this way or we’ve always done it this way
And so therefore we should continue to do it this way.
There’s a fine line there Clint between
the reason why we do it is because it’s deeply connected to meaning and
an intention a thoughtful
heartfelt intention to lift up to God in worship and then there’s this other side that says well I
Resonate more with or I think it’s better when and these are not unimportant
And I don’t want to sort of smash down on those right away
But the the substantial difference between the theological underpinning and the preferential treatment
Those things matter as we come to worship because if I was going to be honest
I would say a majority of our modern worship debates not exclusively
But a majority of them live more on the preference side than on the theological side
Yeah Or maybe you could say the the question of what is appropriate in worship and it seems to me Michael that the sanctuary
Is the place where our theology and our practice meet the most often?
And so we if we are going to feel some
Emotional attachment to the the patterns and traditions of a particular congregation
Those are likely going to be based on what happens in the sanctuary and and so it very much is
Sacred ground for people,
but it’s not always theological ground and and maybe an example helps when I was in
Seminary it actually may have been in college took a music class of religious
theology theology of music class and of course the hymn in the garden comes up which
among theologians and musicians
It is not well regarded and you know,
and they could make a very good case
for why that is
in those parameters a substandard piece of music and has some
fairly
loose
Theology in it as well
however
When a person has sung that at the funerals of their loved ones
when they have sat and heard that song in the
Community that they grew up in and look back on that time with fond memories.
I can understand
theologically the points but emotionally
That’s my mother grandmother’s favorite him.
Whatever it is.
And so
Saying who you know that that him doesn’t really fit in the sanctuary.
I May be able to assent to that mentally
But that’s going to that’s going to bring a reaction
Emotionally and and I think most of our worship battles throughout the years have lived in that emotional side of
the equation and I
Think that’s very natural
We get very attached to things and when they when they affect us as good
We assume that they are good.
And so when they’re questioned,
we we don’t like it.
Yeah, and we don’t do change.
Well
That is to be human.
Yeah, I I want to dig in there a little bit because I think you’re right on the money Clint
both of us have had the privilege of getting to worship with serve in
different congregations and you know,
the reality is Music tends to be a sticking point in congregations.
I think it’s for that very reason that you’re naming
music has a way of
affecting us it has a way of connecting with us in a way that’s not just
Intellectual it connects to our hearts.
It brings back memories.
It comforts music has a sort of
Multidimensional sense that I think is makes it unbelievably powerful
If you look back in history,
by the way You’re gonna find that there are some Christians who have been suspect of music for that very reason
They’ve said, you know, you gotta be careful with music because it can make it easy for you to lose focus
On the purpose of worship,
but we’re not gonna delve into that
I think the point that’s worth making in the conversation though is it is very easy
Once we get into the place of music to leave worship saying I
Liked fill in the blank that was beautiful
Which brings with it the corollary someone else says that was ugly.
I didn’t like that
That wasn’t good.
And when we do that,
we subtly shift focus and in that moment
Worship was directed at least worships purpose was directed
Towards us and away from God and as those who inhabit the Reformed tradition
We’re gonna emphasize that worship is ultimately an offering that we make to God as a body
The idea is that we as a collective are making this offering to God as a form of thanksgiving
Of course, we bring ourselves in petition.
We ask God how to be with those who are in need we seek God
Voice in the proclamation of Scripture
but but we are offering up in worship this thing that we desire to be a reflection of our gratitude and praise and when we
Come into these moments where the affect of worship becomes a measure of the value of worship
We’ve now entered into this realm in which we’re becoming the sole arbiters of what is good
What isn’t good and we begin to operate in a way that I think subtly we didn’t intend on operating
But it can become very divisive very quickly.
Yeah, and I agree Michael
I think music is the place we access that reality the most often when I when I say
That that this piece of music is good.
I
Don’t I don’t bring enough to the conversation to say that from a musical standpoint
I can’t talk about what key it’s in or whether it represents its style
Well, I often don’t even mean that the lyrics are well written or that it’s polished
I I simply mean that I like it it it sounds good to me
It makes me feel a certain way that that I appreciate it for and so I I would say that
We in the church tend to label
our music with the loosest label of good
almost exclusively tied to our
experience of that music and I
Think you can kind of see that you know that the camp
Movement of the late 60s where people started to bring acoustic guitars into church and do some singing
In the mainline church that others had a head start on us
But then through the 70s even the the very rough beginnings of what might be called worship bands
which ultimately then moved into the community church model in say the 80s and and huge in the 90s and
If you look at the path of two churches one with good
Attractive music and bad theology and one with bad music, but good theology
My money’s on the first to grow it music is a huge
Attractor for people and the community church model figured this out
I mean they they didn’t when they moved into a building they didn’t build an organ
They didn’t install an organ.
They had a band up front and and people found that very
Accessible and in the mainline church the Presbyterian and other church.
We were suspect of that though.
Most of us I think have
have
gained
At least some degree of comfort with the idea that it happens
We may not want it in the service we attend
But we understand that it’s probably okay for those who prefer it
But but it created this kind of divide and I think interestingly in our lifetimes.
I think we have seen
maybe
the largest
Battles over worship music in the history of the church
Yeah, and you’ve already named it but I want to just circle back to it and make it explicit clint
I think one of the reasons those battles became so fraught is
Because there was this belief that it was the worship style itself
That would attract the people to the church
In other words, there was this prevailing idea that if the only music you had in your worship service was organ
All of these band people were lost that you could just count them out
they’re not coming to your church and vice versa that the the the band people are gonna go to their church and that if you
Didn’t have an organ.
You’re never gonna get these other people and what happened was this sort of almost
Recess elementary school recess kind of team-splitting where you know,
I pick you you pick you and
Ultimately, both of those are different sides of the same coin,
right?
If you say I’m only going to a church that has a great rock band
Well that excludes you from the other church and there’s this idea that the music would sort itself out, which is
It makes sense
preferentially, it doesn’t make sense
Theologically because the body of Christ can worship in many places and in many styles
It doesn’t need any particular musical accoutrement to be able to worship faithfully
But yet I think we as matter of course sort of culturally began to speak as if those were two
realities we had to choose between and it caused some significant division between church bodies and I’m not laying any of the blame for
This at the feet of music,
but it coincides.
I think Michael with a time when things like denominational loyalty
Begin to be less important
And so what becomes the new predictor of what church I go to not whether I’ve called myself
Methodist historically or whether I consider myself Lutheran or Presbyterian I may start there but all the sudden worship style
becomes the the primary
Route that people are using to find a church
I want to find a church that worships the way that I like whether traditionally or non traditionally what it whatever labels you want
to give to that
But rather it rather than I need to find a Lutheran church or I need to find a Presbyterian church
I need to find a church that has this style
I need to find a church that has this style and and we’ve seen that
We’ve seen that ebb and flow a little bit in the 80s and 90s
The the that balance was weighted heavily to the end of the community church
big loud lights sound
computers screens and
And out of that it began to move back as people said well,
I miss liturgy.
I miss quiet I miss reflection and so ultimately the pendulum did go pretty far that direction
But it started to move back and I think as we enter
entered and and are in the early part of the 21st century there has been more of a balance as people
begin to look past style and
Look for the right kind of community for them and I it will be interesting to see where that goes in the next few decades
But I do think we’ve seen
Some shifts it’s going to take more than good music to bring people to a congregation
Generally speaking in this day and age right now.
I in my opinion.
I agree and I think that
Worship is both a place where wires get crossed for the congregation,
but I think it also happens in church leadership
Clint I think there’s a sense in which sometimes
Pastors put a lot of stock in if I could change this in worship
Everything else would be fixed and a lot of times that too is a matter of preference that the pastor
Whoever they are would like it to be this way as opposed to this way and I’ve seen
Times where you know you get a thing in the mail that says you know if you do this thing
Three keys to success as a church change this in your worship get this new church program
That’s going to show fancy backgrounds on the screen or you know get this instrument
Or hey if you follow this webinar or this particular church sort of leader or trainer
They’re going to help you get your worship fixed and people are going to come in
There’s this sort of quick fix mentality that exists even in church leadership this temptation if we make it a little bit jazzier
Or we change it a little bit that it’s going to just sort of be the thing that gets built and everybody’s going to come and
That I think is a fundamental misordering of what we mean by worship
And that temptation exists for every Christian regardless of their role in a congregation
We when we misorder worship away from the the maintenance of divine worship the recognition of a God who created redeemed sustains
When we move away from that fundamental reality what ends up happening is we begin to
reincarnate worship into our own image
And and that is I think where we begin to find some of the knock-out drag-out arguments become destructive
They become moments in which churches devolve away from the core gospel
And they begin to look less like the body that they were called to be they less they look less diverse they look
Less age groups are reflected less people are able to actually worship because it becomes more and more about
emphasizing one voice one style one way of being in the world as opposed to the whole
Family and you know Clint that’s easy to talk about it’s really hard to live out.
I think that Presbyterians have
historically been suspicious of the idea of
entertaining people or by bringing people in through entertainment and
that has
caused us I think to be slow and
very cautious as We’ve finally begun to move into an awareness that it’s okay
To offer people something that resonates with them
However, if that is the point if the point is that people are drawn to this
style and not to the substance of worship then
That then we have to answer some very
Serious questions because ultimately the evaluation of worship isn’t whether you or I liked it whether it fit us
but whether it gives glory and praise to God in a way that is fitting in a way that is accessible and
You know this I think if we could
Enact these conversations and discussions about worship with that in mind.
We would probably have far less
tense moments and hurt feelings
You know the the idea that we’re going to argue this kind of music is better than that kind of music
But really all that’s at stake in that is I like this better.
I’m I’m not saying that that
God can’t be glorified in this music.
I just don’t like it and
I think it demands a certain level of humility to understand that
Look,
this is these are not unimportant questions,
but they’re not the primary question
Who is worship for is the primary question and and the Reformed Church has always stood heavily on
The ground that worship is first and foremost for God and then
Secondarily for us and when you frame it that way,
I think it allows you to have
conversations about style and content without them being
Knocked down drag outs in other words when we make when we refuse to make those things sacred
Because we already honor what is sacred it would then we can talk about do you like this style?
Do you like that you do you think drum do drums work for this community?
Do they not is this music better for us than that?
You know, then I think you can diffuse some of those and have real conversations about what happens in the sanctuary
I think another lens that you can lay across this conversation is especially in the modern era
There’s been a lot of thinking and discourse surrounding
what the Ultimate attractant of worship is supposed to be is it supposed to bring in sort of the insider weekly and meet their
Preferences and help them sort of spiritually be rejuvenated,
you know, really give them an experience that that they can resonate with
They can go into their week
Loaded up ready to go and then come back next Sunday or is worship for the outsiders for the guests for the visitors
Should it be easy to enter into should it should it make sense?
Should you not have a lot of up and down and a lot of moving around should there be?
Less sort of readings and should it be more a little bit like a show or entertainment because people can relate to that
Is that more accessible for somebody who’s maybe not a Christian and there have been entire churches founded on that principle alone?
Well, we are for this group of people and we’re gonna try to serve them well,
or we’re for this group of people
We’re gonna try to attract them and bring them in and when we do that
We begin to I think segment our churches
It’s a very finite groups of people and in doing so we actually lose a lot of the richness of what worship is
Intended to do because worship if you’re really a willing to let it play out
Speaks to all of us in different stages of our life,
right within a worship service in the Presbyterian tradition
We’re gonna have prayer which recognizes the difficulty that’s happening in people’s lives
We’re gonna have moment of scripture readings often
There’s a praise or affirmation where we offer back to God gratitude who we intentionally incorporate a diverse
Group of elements in worship so that all of it reflects the whole body that’s present
but when we become fixated on a particular group that worship is intended for what begins to happen is
Worship begins to include less and less of that diversity becomes more and more finely
Tuned to a particular group and I think that that has been dangerous because
Our churches in many ways
Especially in the mainline have begun to reflect a very small cross section of our communities
If we’re honest We could do a better job of being open and hospitable and welcoming and that doesn’t require us going to our worship committees and saying
All right, gotta get a guitar in the sanctuary.
Otherwise, they won’t come it requires us having a real conversation about who we are
And are we really open and what would worship look like if we were but that substantial conversation?
I think gets pulled into these less substantial conversations really quickly.
Yeah, I think that there is a very interesting
ground to walk there Michael and as people who are
Involved in planning worship the reality on one hand is
That worship reflects the people who are there.
So the people who are coming to a particular church
they’re generally coming because they
They like or at least are comfortable with what happens there.
They have some
affiliation they have generally some approval of what’s going on there and so as a worship leader
You want to honor that you want to say what we’re doing seems to be working for this group of people who?
Resonate with it.
However, you also know at any given moment
There are these other people out there who aren’t in church and who aren’t probably going to connect in the same way with what you’re doing
And so how do we broaden our offering without?
sacrificing or Alienating the people who like it
but opening it up trying to build some bridges to people who aren’t yet in it and
that’s that’s a tough ground to walk and when we get territorial when
We have to do that because we’ve always done that becomes a mantra in a church
That church is going to struggle when we lose the idea to say that
Worship is a place we can experiment worship is a place where we can try new things
Worship is not evaluated by do I like it?
But rather have we done something in the name of Jesus Christ that seeks to be honoring
To God and equip people for living out their faith
Then it gives there’s a certain freedom and and I will say not to make this a commercial for first press
But I will say one of the things I think first Presbyterian Church does really well is allow the freedom
To have different experiences in worship now
Some of that is we have incredible music staff and on any given Sunday our choir may do a piece
That’s out of out of ordinary our organist may play something classical or something modern
We have the ability to have some of our other musicians involved.
I mean I think
from a musical standpoint we reflect here the idea that we can always be
Experimenting with new things to see if they work and if they don’t
Well, that doesn’t mean they’re bad.
It means they’re maybe not for us
But in doing so we may discover some new things we can do as well
And I appreciate that openness because I think it makes it far easier to
Have a working understanding of what we’re trying to do when we come to the sanctuary together
You know I think the temptation of the church has long been to consider
Worship as the thing that we do on Sunday that becomes the metric.
Well, I like that we do it in that order
I like the stuff that’s in that order
That can get as specific as you want what we fail to recognize too often
I think is that ultimately reflection that worship rather is a reflection of the people gathered there of both who they are and
Who they’re called to be where they’re called to go as a body
That’s a little bit more nuanced and tricky to to work through and that has really practical implications
For instance, a lot of churches have what they call a youth Sunday first presence
They’re like we’ve had youth Sundays where we’ve invited youth to lead worship
The the failure of thinking in only having a youth Sunday is that you believe that one Sunday a year is the day when we let
The youth lead worship and it’s as if there’s this one little tiny week
That’s an island unto itself and the youth are out there
First price also has a tradition of having youth participate as liturgists all throughout the year,
which I think is a more helpful
Practice because in that we’re reminded that high school youth college-age youth these these are important disciples
Worshiping when within the life of a congregation
It’s important for them to be regularly leading in worship as part of that community.
That is a subtle shift
From where we say hey,
we do this thing where we have youth lead worship – it’s important to us that our youth
Are reflected in the worshiping life of the congregation because we know that they are part of the congregation and that is just one
Particular example that gets worked out in lots of different ways
We want to make sure that both genders are
Reflected in worship in our liturgists
We want to make sure that lots of different voices and life experience gets reflected in worship these musical styles,
obviously But all of this is important not because of the doing itself necessarily
But because of what that means of who we are and who we’re called to be
Yeah, I think that as regards this idea of
Squabbling over worship, you know, we come to that conversation
and it seems to me that if we
Again can meet on the central theme that worship is
first foremost and fundamentally for God
That secondarily Worship is for us and that worship is not primarily then
Entertainment,
it’s not primarily evangelism.
It’s not primarily
Discipleship, it’s not primarily reflection.
It’s not primarily about what we get out of it and
None of those are bad.
In fact, I think good worship should do all of those things
but it has to do them with God at the center and the core and
You know again, Michael, I just think it the church I
Don’t want this to sound
judgmental but
in my experience so much of what we have fought over in worship has
little to do with the core issue of
what we are trying to do when we worship and And
Almost always it comes down to personal preference and yes
We all like to get our way and yes
We all like our preferences to be met and and I do think that none of us
We are all going to struggle if I try to join a church that doesn’t do anything that appeals to me
I’m going to struggle there.
There has to be enough connection that I can settle in learn the rhythms learn the routines and
Make room for me to experience God in those services and and if everything in the service is off-putting to me
I’m really going to struggle with that if I never resonate with any of it
I’m going to have a very difficult time
But I just find that so much of what we’ve argued about really has so little to do with the key
elements of what we mean when we use the word worship and so
I’ve found that for me most of the worship arguments have been
Not not real productive.
There’s a really nuanced sort of distinction
between the parts of worship that challenge us and
The parts of worship that don’t resonate with us.
That’s a really tricky conversation to have because on one hand
You’re exactly right clean
And we need to name that there are church families that are just not going to be for you
You’re gonna go to worship and you’re gonna realize you know what?
I don’t speak this language at all the illogically or stylistic
Yes, thank you.
Yeah in substance We’re worshiping Jesus Christ together,
but I’m not really able to engage with this body
And if that’s the place where you’re at
I don’t think there’s any judgment in that and I think the
Diversity of the body of Christ is a gift in that sense,
but there’s another aspect here that I do think is important
Where when we go to worship and we
Lift ourselves up we seek to offer ourselves to a living God if we do that weekly
And there is never an occasion in which we are challenged in which we are
Really put out there and we see our own
Hippocracies our own sinfulness when we don’t have to grapple with some tough things if our worship experience doesn’t engage the difficult parts of life
Then we maybe are not offering worship in the fullness of what it is intended to be and I think too often
People do have an expectation of worship being
encouraging
Inspiring meaningful all good things and every worshiping congregation should have moments where that is present
100% but if that is the only thing on the menu
Then I would encourage us to take some self-reflection to ask ourselves
Is this reflective of the diversity of God that we see in the scriptures that we’re reading in worship?
Because I would argue that you look at something like the Psalms that includes a lot of praise a lot of thanksgiving
Clint but it has a lot of lamentation or or prayers to God that are lifting up grief
Pain struggle if that’s not reflected in our worship and we don’t sometimes walk out of the sanctuary saying
That hurt a little bit I need to reflect on that then I wonder if we’re worshiping in the fullness of what we should be
I had a person tell me one time about a church that they attended
I’d like it because every time I leave I feel good and I I said well
Be careful with that because clearly the gospel should make us feel good on regular occasions
But if we’re reading all of it,
there are also moments.
It’s going to convict us.
It’s going to challenge us it’s going to
That’s going there’s going to be some guilt there’s going to be some rebuke and
The gospel if all we get is the celebration and the fun parts of the story We’re not
encountering the whole gospel and so yes church should make you feel good on a very regular basis,
but there are moments that should also
Challenge you and if you shrink from those you’re going to miss
the experience of growth because that’s when
growth growth rarely happens when we feel good growth is generally the byproduct of a struggle and
If we if we’re not willing to encounter
Those parts of the gospel we’re going to have a hard time growing
I think there are moments in which the worship conversation becomes fraught not
Necessarily because of what we do but because of the assumptions that we’ve made about it
And I think that’s really seen pretty clearly in some of the labels that popped up for worship over the years
Clint people have begun to talk about worship as
Contemporary versus traditional which we’ve had some significant conversations about you’ve in fact had some sermons
And we’ve generated some conversations than the congregation about there is some real
good merit in Pausing and reflecting on how we talk about what we do in the sanctuary
Because there’s implications such as when we say that we have traditional worship and contemporary worship
It might leave one with the impression that the traditional worship is no longer
Contemporary that it’s locked in time and it’s sort of solidified unto itself.
I think that when we talk about
Contemporary versus traditional and what we mean our particular instrumentation in different services
We have once again pigeonholed those services such that they can’t branch out and do something different
I wonder Clint what do we do as we begin to think about worship not just as our
Experience of it, but the one to whom we offer worship
What does that do to our labels and how we talk about the worship experience?
Yeah, a little bit of a softball Michael cuz I’m you know my biases.
I’m I’m very uncomfortable and
often
dislike the words we attach to worship any label that we
Give worship in addition
generally for me Makes it worse not better that limits it doesn’t expand it so when we talk about
Historic worship or casual worship or you know informal or formal worship liturgical worship is
Contemporary alternative I don’t find most of those words
Helpful at all a faithful worship is I think the litmus that we should use whether we wear suits or not
I understand that when we say those things we’re trying to communicate
The style and again that matters it is important for people to have some sense of what’s going to happen when you get here
But the reality is all of those labels
carry an implication of a
Superiority meaning that the opposite is less so traditional worship
Implies that it’s somehow better than contemporary which implies that it’s somehow better than traditional
that the truth is that both are essential and both are important and so I I
Regret that I think we’ve not put enough thought
into these
Modifiers these labels, you know, we’re currently in an interesting moment where we talk about
In-person worship and online worship new labels have been added to our sort of canon and how we talk about
worship and and already
We’re getting the camps.
I had somebody send me a
Message from some pastor in I think Tennessee
Saying that churches who weren’t meeting in person were being unfaithful that you cannot worship online
Well, that’s just false
We have experienced I’ve had enough conversations with people during this pandemic to know that what we have been sending out online has
created an opportunity for real
Genuine moments of worship is worship better when we can all come to the sanctuary together.
Yeah, there are aspects of that that are
Truly better, of course from a communal standpoint.
That’s better but to say that online worship can’t be accomplished is
insanity and it
It’s not again
We are so quick to focus on that word instead of worship whenever we put a word in front of it
That becomes the metric that we evaluate with and and it’s an unfortunate reality that I think we’re
Living through and I and I hope living past because I don’t I don’t find it helpful
I agree completely and I don’t want to talk shop here.
I hope this isn’t boring for those joining us
But this an incredibly nuanced conversation Clint
I’ve seen church signs that say things like watch worship online at whatever whatever time that word watch
Matters, what are you doing when you’re coming online?
Are you just spectating?
Are you just what watching or are you joining worship?
Are you?
Participating in worship, which is a word that we would use when we’re talking about coming to church
We have that in non covid times as well where we talk about things like well
I have to go sit through church or I have to go be in church
Well, okay, it’s good that your physical body is in the in the sanctuary
But that’s really the lowest common denominator that you got yourself there that day if we’re really
Theologically seeking to offer ourself to the creator of all things we can do better than sit through
Those fine words do have implications that matter and the label that we use to describe worship is not just stylistic
It’s about how we are going to behave and act in that worship
And that’s really a matter of the heart Jesus talks about how it’s not the action that matters per se
It’s the heart with which it is done is the intention that God knows the intention of the heart and you know
That’s where worship gets really messy because it’s not about the stuff
But the stuff is a reflection of the hearts in which it is offered the intention of those who come to do it and these
Labels are part of that intention.
So I would really advise
It’s worth doing a checkup every now and then on how do I talk about worship?
how do I think about worship what what verbs do I use when I do that because that is on some level of reflection of
What purpose you see worship providing for you?
And ultimately is it related to the worship of God and you know
I think all of us could grow in that sort of continual
Reforming of that reminder that worship is ultimately beyond just our perception of it
And it’s good for us to change our labels where we need to to reflect that style matters and
accessibility matters
but the point of worship is not to connect with style but to connect with Jesus Christ and
If if we if our allegiance is to the style then we have not yet
understood what it means to come into the sanctuary or the space for worship and
worship
style is just a helpful tool seeking to get us to the end of
connection with with Christ with an encounter with God and
Michael I think that we will be in
The next probably couple years.
I think we will be in a very interesting place with regard to worship
You know in the hopefully near future
You’re going to have millions and millions of people
Coming back into sanctuaries in some cases not having done that for
probably a year at that point and
Maybe
maybe what that does is I
Suppose it could do two things.
It could make the sacred cows even more sacred
Right that it could make the style even more off-limits
But I I hope instead that it creates a gratitude that it creates an appreciation
It’s easy to do a thing every week and take and end up taking it for granted when you’ve knocked out
50 a hundred two hundred five hundred worship services
It’s it’s pretty easy to not think of that as something special and yet after this pause
Maybe we all re-enter the sanctuaries in our communal worship services with a better sense of
What a wonderful gift it is to gather with brothers and sisters and and hopefully that will be more
Important the act of worship and the community of worship will be more important than what hymns we sing on the day
we go back and and
Whether the communion table was moved or whether you know,
the stained glass window was in the right place
Whatever it is that we sometimes think of as important
I hope those things kind of fade in the background and we for at least a window of time get to truly celebrate
The the gift of coming together into the sanctuary before God and offering praise
I think that is going to be a wonderful gift that moment when we get to
see each other and we’re gonna get to not just do the wave but actually give each other a hug get to
Drink coffee across from one another get to do all of the things that have been markers of what it means to be a family and
There’s going to just be sheer gratitude in that process
I think maybe one of the temptations of coming back is going to be the idea of what we’ve talked about before and that is
Going back you’re going back in time to practices and habits that we’ve always done
Sheerly for the fact that we’ve done them and sometimes we miss the sheer gravity of just doing a thing over and over
Tends to make it easier to do that thing
It’s just a rolling sort of process such that when worship happens every week
You don’t have a lot of time to rethink the wheel every week and nor should you?
Everybody sort of has a rhythm and you keep going down through the rhythm
The gift of this time has been the struggle of making worship happen
And there’s a sense in which the maintenance of divine worship does require work for everyone in the congregation
And one of the things I’ve appreciated about this time
So we’ve got to rethink things like
Maybe we could have people who aren’t liturgist in other words people comfortable standing in front of a congregation to read a thing
Call a voicemail so that we can hear their voice and worship or kids can make pictures and that gets included in worship
There’s been a lot of things that have made worship more work in this time,
but that work hasn’t necessarily been negative
There’s a sense in which we’ve got to try some things that would have never been tried in the normal process of worship previous and
That does present this problem then when one comes back to the sanctuary
What sanctuary is one coming back to and that is fundamentally not the most important question
I think that’s the one we’re all sort of asking.
What will it look like?
What will it feel like to be back in that place?
But really I think the ultimate question is how can we as a church body?
Reflect who we are now in the worship that we offer and what that will look like
You know quite frankly will look like more work
It’ll look like us trying to be faithful as a body of Christ
But I think it’s a fascinating sort of new opportunity that lies ahead
Yeah, it will be a challenge because the temptation of the church has always been to make
Worship about us and it will be a moment where we’re glad to be back
we’re grateful and we think all that isn’t this great for us and
What do we want to do now and again not unimportant questions
Right just not essential not not good first questions
and so this will be I think an opportunity for the church and I hope that it will be a
Renewal of worship and not you know of a chapter in some future podcast about worship battles
I hope that churches are able to celebrate
To incorporate new things that they’ve learned and new skills that they’ve developed during this time,
but I What I think drives the church is this fundamental conviction?
That Jesus Christ must be praised that God must be honored and that the people of Jesus Christ will come together
To do that and if that be by computer
For a season so be it if that be hidden in caves historically from fear
so be it but
Nothing has ever stopped the church from worshiping nor could anything and so I very
Frustrated with language about can you or can’t you worship in this way or that way?
Yes
Yes, if God is at the center then largely it becomes less important
What music you’re singing and whether you have pews or chairs or stained glass windows or a strip mall?
those things matter to some extent but not very much and
What matters most is did we come together in a way that worked for us and was open to new people and did we worship?
Jesus Christ was he celebrated was he magnified was he lifted up and were we challenged to be better
Disciples and if we’ve done that then I don’t think it matters if you have an organ a guitar a tambourine
Or if you just banged on bongos you had worship and you should celebrate it
Yeah, that’s a really really subtle shit shift and I want to make that explicit for those who are with us in the conversation
There’s a bit of bait and switch when we come to talk about worship and we end by saying not really worship
It’s really the one in worship and that shift though subtle is
essential that is the substance of worship and I think we miss the force and power of it Clint because if we believe and
And we do believe theologically that the Spirit of God meets us in worship that that spirit
Brings a moment in which we are taken up into the divine life that God is doing something
Really doing something in that moment and if we do believe that
Maybe if we don’t we need to be reminded of it if we do believe that then what God does in that place is
Good unto itself because God was there because Jesus Christ the one who died was resurrected and ascended
that one is lifted up in that place and
As those who go through our week who struggle with the sins that we know that we struggle with our own
Frailty our own weakness who knows what it means to be tired and and to bear in ourselves
Just grief and sadness all of the things that we carry with us day to day to day
That moment should be a moment in which we are face to face with the reality of the good news of the gospel a weekly
Encounter with the one who goes with us in every time and place and Clint that is what makes worship
Essential that’s what makes worship
Substantial and the stuff that we do in worship does help us as we seek to make that encounter
But but the subtle shift is important
Let’s move away from the stuff of worship
Which is the stuff that largely we fight about and let us focus on the core thing that should be shared by all
Who enter worship and yet we do remain need reminded of what that is,
right?
And I think if we the more that we’re able Michael to keep that front and center the the less that we will be
Tempted to have destructive
Conversations or arguments about the other we can still talk we get we will always have preferences
we will always have choices that seem better or worse for us or maybe for others and suit other purposes but as long as we
Keep the the main thing the main thing we can have those conversations without them becoming a disruption or a destruction of
The thing we’re trying to do or say we’re trying to do which is worship
So we’re grateful that you’ve joined in we hope that we haven’t rambled too much
We hope that there’s been something in this has been thought provoking
We realize that this one’s a little different in that we didn’t talk about specific battles
But again, I think you’ve encountered them.
I think you you’ve seen them.
I think you understand that background
So we hope this
Inspires some thoughtfulness some thinking about what it is that we do each week that we get together
Whether that be in the sanctuary or in this current moment online and what it means to worship Jesus Christ together as a family
Yeah, and ultimately hopefully it enables a kind of a personal checkup
I think it’s maybe difficult in the conversation about Jesus’s divinity versus humanity to to sort of have a weekly sort of reminder of the
Purpose of faith.
I mean, we know that’s important
But it does help
Reorient us when we come to worship to have a moment which we we really do sell ourselves and ask hey
Why am I here?
Well Lord God help remind me of that,
right?
Worship is generally not something that’s done to us something that’s done by us and
Something we seek to do well.
And so if you have thoughts on that we’d love to hear them friends
Thanks for joining us for another pastor talk conversation
It’s always good to be with you
And we look forward to continuing on our series where we try to make church fights a little bit more fun
Until the next time see you soon