John: In Conclusion

00:00:00:39 – 00:00:23:09
Clint Loveall
Hey, everybody. Thanks for joining us on our last day with the Gospel of John in this study, grateful that you’ve been listening or that you continue to listen. We will be taking from here. We’ll be taking the summer off, will be coming back in the fall to start a new book. If you have some thoughts on what you’d like to see as that focus.

00:00:23:24 – 00:00:45:08
Clint Loveall
Please let us know. We’d be glad to have some guidance for that as we move through today, though, we finished the text of the Gospel of John, and so we thought we’d just, reflect for a few moments on the the place of the Gospel of John. I think, as you would know from the study, John is a bit of an outlier.

00:00:45:09 – 00:01:13:09
Clint Loveall
There are four Gospels we call three of them synoptic, which literally means they look alike. And John is kind of the odd one out. John is the most different from the other three. The most unique of the four Gospels that we have. The chronology in John is different, the style is different. The major stories, are often unique to John, at least some of them.

00:01:13:14 – 00:01:43:22
Clint Loveall
It’s not that John tells a different story, but it is that John tells the story differently and I don’t know, Michael, I you or, you’re a fan of the Gospel of John and I suspect that that is true for a lot of people, because John is a different voice, a different take. I think that that makes this book appealing to people.

00:01:43:22 – 00:02:07:15
Clint Loveall
John offers us some unique material. Also, the way John writes means some of the obviously John 316 and the woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery. Some of the some of the I don’t want to call them sound bites, but some of the takeaways from this gospel really work their way into the collective favorites in the Christian church.

00:02:07:15 – 00:02:17:13
Clint Loveall
And I think people maybe are surprised how much of what they know of the gospel story might be filtered through John, in many cases.

00:02:17:18 – 00:02:51:16
Michael Gewecke
So let’s talk about that for just a second. I do think that if you’re going to be making a recommendation to someone who’s maybe not read one of the gospels before that, they’re going to have their first encounter with the Jesus story. I, I don’t think that you make the recommendation to read John. I’ve heard that done. And I think the argument behind that is that, you know, John presents these characters and that these characters may be relatable.

00:02:51:16 – 00:03:24:01
Michael Gewecke
And I could see that. I think the reason I would argue against this is the first gospel that you read is because there’s a way in which John is less interested in telling the core stories of Jesus in the order in which they lead him to Jerusalem. And instead, I think John is more interested in a thoroughgoing. I would even use the word theological project to show that Jesus was, from the start, the very thing he was on the cross, the very thing he is on the other side of the cross.

00:03:24:01 – 00:03:45:42
Michael Gewecke
John has a way of teaching in a way that I don’t know that the other gospel writers do. In the same way, I want to be clear, there’s teaching in all the Gospels. They’re all giving a lens of Jesus Christ, of who he was, of of how that changes our life. Absolutely. But I think of John as the master teacher and that he’s going to tell you the stories.

00:03:45:46 – 00:04:09:54
Michael Gewecke
But as you’ve seen in the length of this study, there are always theology layers underneath those stories. There’s always more revelation than just what Jesus said. You have to learn what Jesus said. But then there’s also the thing beneath what Jesus said. And then there was the thing Jesus was doing while he said what he said. And then there’s the response of the people who misunderstood what Jesus said.

00:04:09:59 – 00:04:39:52
Michael Gewecke
John has a kind of unflinching look at the revelation of Jesus Christ in all of its senses. And so if you’re a person that likes complexity and nuance and shades, and you’re kind of person that enjoys getting into something and finding it’s much deeper than what you anticipated, this is a great book for you. This is a wonderful introduction to the life of Jesus Christ, and why it is that Christians believe that he is who he said he was.

00:04:39:57 – 00:04:59:57
Michael Gewecke
I just want to be clear. I don’t think that this is the shallow end of the pool, that that’s not in any way saying another gospel is shallow. It’s just to say John has more depth than what you’re ever going to find in your study of it. And I think that makes it a uniquely compelling addition to the Jesus Gospels.

00:05:00:01 – 00:05:32:36
Clint Loveall
Yeah, I think maybe the way I would spend that, Michael, is to say John is a is a fascinating book to study. In some ways, it’s a more challenging book to read because it does depart from that, that sort of collective story of the other three gospels that tend to mirror each other much more closely. And this is, this is a nonsensical statement, but I’ll try to unpack it.

00:05:32:40 – 00:06:09:21
Clint Loveall
I think in many ways, John feels like the treatment of Jesus that is most reflective of the person who’s writing it. In other words, I do think there’s a sense in which Luke Matthew maybe certainly Mark is are presenting information in the idea that it’s the historical look. It’s it’s it’s what they think happened. Matthew is going to filter that through the idea of prophecy, and all works are reflective of their author’s.

00:06:09:30 – 00:06:36:36
Clint Loveall
But but John is so deeply embedded in his story, in his telling. I think there are moments it’s hard to separate John from the story itself. And again, you could make that case of any writing and its author. But I think some of the things that make John fascinating also make John not. I would agree, not the best place to start.

00:06:36:36 – 00:07:04:08
Clint Loveall
We don’t have our confirmation kids, for instance, start with the Gospel of John because you need to know where John’s doing something different so you can ask questions of why. And if you don’t have a sense of the what is. Maybe the I don’t want to call it the standard, but the more common approach, you’re not going to know when you’ve wandered from the path a little bit, and you’re not going to know when to ask the questions of why does John do this instead of this?

00:07:04:08 – 00:07:34:06
Clint Loveall
And therefore I just think there’s a reason that even the arrangers of the book put those three together. And then John came next. And that’s not to undermine John or or devalue John’s importance. It’s just I, I think I would 100% agree. It’s just not it’s not the place to start. There’s too much other stuff you need to know in order to filter what John is doing and what’s happening in the book.

00:07:34:06 – 00:08:08:28
Clint Loveall
And so, yeah, I don’t think it’s I don’t think it’s a good intro. Having said that, I will say that I’ve been reminded as we’ve gone through John this time how deeply embedded we are, how deeply indebted we are to the things that John has embedded in this gospel, that there’s no gospel that’s stronger on Trinity, that’s stronger on the incarnation, that’s stronger on the divinity of Christ than the I am statements.

00:08:08:33 – 00:08:34:06
Clint Loveall
Much of what we understand of the sort of nature of Jesus questions. We take our theological cues from the Gospel of John in a way that I think is much more upfront and apparent than those other gospels. Maybe that’s because John is later. Maybe that’s just because those are the things John found important. But, we get a lot of crucial Jesus ideas from this gospel.

00:08:34:06 – 00:08:37:23
Clint Loveall
And I think that’s been apparent to me this time through.

00:08:37:28 – 00:09:08:09
Michael Gewecke
So obviously, if you’ve made it this far into this conversation, you know, as a concluding work here in this conversation, this is a lot of what Clint and I think this isn’t we’re not digging into the text. Right. And so I think in the full disclosure interest of what Michael thinks, and I’m curious what you would say to this, Clint, in a way, I think John, on its face is the kind of book where we have so much theological content, per your previous point.

00:09:08:09 – 00:09:36:04
Michael Gewecke
I would also add, though, I think one of the reasons that I love John so much is because I think it is also the most directive of all the Gospels. It has in it this idea of witness from start to end, which is just an explicit throughline that John, the writer, wants the reader to know, that this is all serving the purpose of you, recognizing your task and role as a testifier.

00:09:36:09 – 00:10:01:06
Michael Gewecke
Just as you receive these as testimony, you have that in, in, say, like the book of Mark, I think the ending of Mark leaves you with the question of so then what will you do? Right? If the disciples were afraid and yet you’ve received this gospel now, what is your response to it? I think that’s an amazing narrative kind of move that that puts us into the the driver’s seat of the faith in our own life.

00:10:01:19 – 00:10:30:52
Michael Gewecke
But Clint John starts with this idea of witness and testimony. John embeds it at every level. All of these questions of it subtly come back to the reader. I just think, yes, it is deep and there’s lots of metaphor and allegory and and theology and also, I do think that this book is amazingly practical in other ways, in the ways that it calls Christians to live out their faith in evangelistic.

00:10:30:52 – 00:10:50:03
Michael Gewecke
If you’re going to let me use that word from the sense of of the speaking and living faith aspect, that this book expects Christians to give voice and testimony to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. And I think that is so explicit in the book. I think it is one of the things that I most appreciate about the book.

00:10:50:07 – 00:11:22:05
Clint Loveall
Yeah, I, I turn it, I don’t want to I don’t want to push this too far. Overstate it, Michael, but I’m just kind of sitting here thinking, who is the Gospel of John for? Or if you dig into the Gospel of John, what do you miss from the other books? And I, I think if if you want a just glaring spotlight on the person of Jesus, if you want.

00:11:22:10 – 00:11:53:36
Clint Loveall
A reflection of that, that commitment that Jesus has that is unwavering, that never ask questions, that is never in doubt, that has no weakness. Right? That John, he makes a whip early in the book and he drives out the money changers and he’s sort of bigger than life in this book. And he knows what people are thinking and nobody and and and yes, that’s in other gospels, but it’s tempered with my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

00:11:53:51 – 00:12:27:54
Clint Loveall
And being tempted and being hungry and things like that, where, John, I think, minimizes to some extent any idea of human weakness? I won’t say Jesus humanity, but certainly I would say that he is not interested in in any particular exploration of, of Jesus’s weakness as a human or shortcomings in terms of having a body and, and feeling pain and, and those sort of things.

00:12:27:59 – 00:13:25:28
Clint Loveall
So if you if you need a season of nothing will stop. Jesus. No one can stand against Jesus then. John, is John is your book. There’s a that’s nearly every page of this. Although, fascinatingly enough, this is the one gospel in which Jesus sheds tears. So. Right. You do have some, maybe some wiggle room in that, although I’m not exactly sure that that’s what John has in mind, but I, I think that there’s a certain almost heroic nature of Jesus in the Gospel of John that is very compelling, but maybe in some ways makes Jesus a little more difficult to relate to as quote unquote, one of us agreed.

00:13:25:33 – 00:13:50:22
Michael Gewecke
I think that in all the other gospels, there are places where there are temptations. As a reader, I think Matthew, some of Jesus’s, very strong language against the Jewish leadership, that, you know, there are places where you could dig in in every gospel that might lead you farther away from the center of that, the telling of Jesus’s story.

00:13:50:27 – 00:14:25:37
Michael Gewecke
I think John is a gospel. Among all, for that is playing with fire. I think that history shows, actually, if you read through the historical commentaries of theologians and scholars reading John, John, I think has a disproportionate amount of invective arguments against Judaism as a whole. People have read Jesus’s debates with the Jewish leadership and have taken that as far as anti Semitic talk, I mean, that has happened in history.

00:14:25:42 – 00:14:51:52
Michael Gewecke
I do think that’s a danger of of the way that John has been read over the course of history. And I think as we’ve demonstrated through our attempt to read it, it doesn’t have to, but it certainly has. And I think another danger of this gospel, if we’re not careful, is the fact that Jesus, in this book, does consistently bring a kind of theological turn over and over and over again.

00:14:51:52 – 00:15:17:45
Michael Gewecke
And there are some Christians who are so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good. And I think John can be read and has been read by some as being just purely spiritual and not physical at all. And I do think that’s a misreading of this book. Yes, Jesus is not weak in the telling this story, and nor do I think we should try to put that into John.

00:15:17:45 – 00:15:39:59
Michael Gewecke
I do think what’s important to remember, though, is, is that John is held in concert with the other witnesses of Jesus Christ and we should read this book with Matthew, Mark and Luke. And I think if you only studied John, if this was the only book that you had, you would have a faithful telling of Jesus’s story.

00:15:39:59 – 00:16:02:04
Michael Gewecke
In fact, John goes so far as to say, you know, I’ve written this so that you might believe this is it, this this was written for that purpose. I would say, though, we are blessed to have the other witnesses, and John should be read with them, because the others have a way of helping hedge and and sort of add nuance and interpretive guides to what John is attempting to do.

00:16:02:04 – 00:16:09:51
Michael Gewecke
I think John onto itself needs to have the larger story connected with it, because that helps us as we try to study it.

00:16:09:55 – 00:16:40:14
Clint Loveall
Yeah, I don’t disagree with that. I again, I think John is maybe compelling in those moments when you’re thinking the world seems out of control, you know, is is God’s sovereign, it seems like we’re on the losing end sometimes as faith people. I think in those moments we we see in John a lot of invitation for confidence and an appeal to surety in our faith.

00:16:40:19 – 00:17:12:29
Clint Loveall
I am this and I am that and that kind of language and the signs of Jesus, and the fact that Jesus goes toe to toe with those who would try to hold him down or silence him, or keep him from being what he is. And, I think there’s a lot to be said for that. I do agree that I think it is helpful that the other Gospels maybe blunt that aggressive edge a little bit.

00:17:12:34 – 00:17:44:12
Clint Loveall
There’s some of that in, in every gospel. I think because John has typically presented a Jesus who is only who is just always the winner. I mean, just it just Jesus is the most of everything. And, I think that it is probably helpful to make sure that that’s tempered with those other accounts as well. But, there’s so much good stuff in the Gospel of John.

00:17:44:16 – 00:18:10:40
Clint Loveall
Again, so much stuff. I think that is beloved, so many moments that people would probably, if they’ve been in the faith for a while, they would know, even if they didn’t know they were from the gospel of John. Certainly the long prayer is unique stands out the idea of us against the world. Which or at least the world against Jesus, would be a better way to say it.

00:18:10:45 – 00:18:34:36
Clint Loveall
I think, you know, that’s helpful to a point. It can be overdone, but it’s interesting and I think that it is, it has some, some upsides as well. But yeah. I bet people would be surprised how much of what they know about Jesus is typically is, is at least possibly rooted in John’s telling I.

00:18:34:37 – 00:19:01:28
Michael Gewecke
One thing I love about John and I I’m going to say it this way, though, I, I think it needs nuance, but I think John’s a little sneaky with some of the themes that are more abundantly clear, like in the book of Luke. You know, Luke just explicitly tells stories about lost things. In in John, there’s a story of the woman at the well and then, you know, we had the whole conversation about the woman caught in the act of adultery, which, you know, was that included originally.

00:19:01:28 – 00:19:35:43
Michael Gewecke
But all of those things, you know, look at that study. But some of these examples of Jesus’s compassion and grace on the lost in the least in John are powerful stories. They are amazingly nuanced and they’re full of life and character. And I think John is a gift to us in that, whether you’re Nicodemus or whether you’re a woman who’s in your, you know, seven faith relationship, right at the end of the day, Jesus’s encounter with you will be life changing and and everything that follows it will be different.

00:19:35:43 – 00:19:56:49
Michael Gewecke
And the question that then comes to us as readers, those of us who’ve gone this study together, is ultimately, how will our encounter with Jesus change who we are and how will it transform our lives in the world? And you know, the point is not to answer that for now and that be done. The point is to come back to it over and over again.

00:19:56:54 – 00:20:19:09
Clint Loveall
Yeah, this may not make sense and push back Michael if it needs clarification, but I would say that in some ways, John is. So I think of the gospel of Mark and I think of Mark as a storyteller. I don’t think of John as a storyteller in the same way. But but you could argue that nobody crafts stories better.

00:20:19:13 – 00:20:54:25
Clint Loveall
If you look at the ninth chapter of John, the Man Born Blind, and you see how John dedicates that entire chapter to the themes of seeing and blindness and darkness and light, and you just look at that chapter alone and what John does with it, to say something about Jesus and humanity and sinfulness and power and and the way that he weaves those themes together, that that may be the best told story in all the Gospels, at least.

00:20:54:25 – 00:21:21:58
Clint Loveall
I wouldn’t argue too strenuously with someone who tried to make that case. I think I’d at least give them a hearing. And John John does that incredibly well. It’s it’s not narrative in the same way that Mark is, because it’s it is almost like a script. It is just so well done and so packed, and so carefully plotted and measured.

00:21:22:03 – 00:21:27:33
Clint Loveall
It’s it’s really, really good. And I think John does that exceptionally well.

00:21:27:37 – 00:21:52:35
Michael Gewecke
Well, to that point, I think what you can say, Clint, is that John is really, really interested in making clear to us that there’s more to this miracle than just the fact that someone who is blind can see. I think you could read some of the other gospels and the miracle years itself. This is miraculous. I think in John, what you can see, it really corrects this idea.

00:21:52:35 – 00:22:04:17
Michael Gewecke
Well, well, did the miracle happen? Well, yes, that’s an important question, but but John makes it clear if you’re only interested in the the yes or no, you missed the point of the miracle, right? That’s the whole point of the I.

00:22:04:17 – 00:22:05:38
Clint Loveall
It’s only where it starts.

00:22:05:49 – 00:22:13:37
Michael Gewecke
Exactly. Right. And John lays that path for us. And I think that that it really does shape the way that Christians read scripture.

00:22:13:44 – 00:22:38:20
Clint Loveall
Or even where we’ve been the last few days that that extensive. And yes, the arguments is there, is it not there? But look at the 21st chapter and and the or even if you start in the 20th 21st chapter with the unfolding appearances that each one reveals something new, right? Shock and then amazement and then doubt and then reinstatement and fishing and try the other side.

00:22:38:20 – 00:23:15:09
Clint Loveall
It just John is is so good at carefully building those stories with the details and allow so many handholds and footholds to get into the story and to try and find something. I just think John is exceptional at doing that. And, and therefore is if if you’re equipped to follow some of what he’s doing, if you if you bring enough Bible to the table to see some of what he’s doing, or at least if you have some good helps, a good commentary or an online guide that you can learn.

00:23:15:10 – 00:23:23:48
Clint Loveall
You can just learn so much from this, this book, you won’t understand all of it. Maybe. But there’s a lot there that you will.

00:23:23:52 – 00:23:37:10
Michael Gewecke
We’re going to go for a while trying to find a better summary than that. So we’re glad to have you with us here today. If you found this helpful, certainly give it a like subscribe. So that you can be with us and notified when we start the study again up in a in a few months. We’re glad to have had you with us for John.

00:23:37:24 – 00:23:39:03
Michael Gewecke
Look forward to seeing you for the next study.

00:23:39:12 – 00:23:39:53
Clint Loveall
Thanks, everybody.