Paul | The Pastor

Transcript

00:00:00:50 – 00:00:30:45
Clint Loveall
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Pastor Talk podcast. Glad to have you with us as we continue actually as we finish our short series on Paul, we’ve looked at Paul from the lens of his missionary work and his passion for sharing the gospel, particularly with Gentiles. Last week we talked about Paul’s work as a theologian, as a thinker, and the absolute fundamental role that Paul played in Christian thought and in building Christian theology.

00:00:30:46 – 00:01:01:21
Clint Loveall
I think this isn’t necessarily connected, though. I do think it may be helpful to watch those first. If you haven’t seen those, maybe particularly the second one would be helpful. Before we begin today’s conversation, which is Paul, as a leader, I think you might even use the word pastor. It’s essentially what does Paul look like through the lens of his relationship with churches and with individuals As a mentor, as a leader, as an instructor.

00:01:01:42 – 00:01:28:49
Clint Loveall
And Michael, I think I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, but depending on which perspective you you look at Paul from. Mm hmm. He does look a little different. And I think maybe the one that gets lost in that most often is this idea of Paul as pastor. Most people know Paul as missionary. Most people know Paul as a theologian.

00:01:28:49 – 00:01:39:46
Clint Loveall
But I think there’s some surprising elements to Paul when we look at his work relationally with other people and churches. And I. I hope we can unpack some of that today.

00:01:39:50 – 00:02:04:40
Michael Gewecke
Yeah. And I think that some of that is reflected even in the different voices that study. Paul Clint. You know, I’ve always thought it’s interesting that when you read about Paul, you can read a theologian talking about Paul. And in those books, Paul is erudite, he is thoughtful, he’s nuanced. He’s reflecting upon all these different, you know, both Jewish concepts and also Greek concepts.

00:02:04:40 – 00:02:24:59
Michael Gewecke
And, you know, it’s fascinating when you look at Paul through the lens of a theologian, you see that we talked last time about Paul and Romans and how dense that is, how it’s been mined throughout the history of the church. But then you can read Paul, from the vantage of like a pastor. If you read a pastor who uses Paul in some work, you’ll see that in those tellings.

00:02:24:59 – 00:02:47:39
Michael Gewecke
Paul is very practical. He’s dealing with home issues and giving people instructions about what they should and shouldn’t do with their income. And, you know, if you’re a pastor, you can see a lot of resonance cities with the kinds of concerns that Paul’s is addressing in many of his letters, very practical things that need practical about, you know, responses.

00:02:47:40 – 00:03:14:13
Michael Gewecke
And then you have the very practical order of, you know, Paul training people and what does that look like? And he brings them with him and how does he fundraise. And so depending upon what vantage you look at, Paul, I don’t think you’re finding a different person. I think you’re just bringing a different set of questions. And when you ask those questions of Paul and of his letters, you see very different aspects of his life and his ministry and his impact.

00:03:14:13 – 00:03:43:40
Michael Gewecke
And I think today as we turn our attention to some of that practical work, I think what’s surprising about Paul to me is how well he held things in tension, because while he was very clear in many of his theological dictates, the things that he talked about, he was very consistent theologically. And yet when you read his letters, you find some things, some pastoral counsel he gives that is in some cases, I think just downright surprising.

00:03:43:40 – 00:04:04:57
Michael Gewecke
He says things that you think, Whoa, Paul, you’re willing to be flexible about that practical thing when you weren’t flexible about this theological thing. And I think it actually for me is not a problem. I think it’s inspiring. I think it’s an interesting I think it’s a question that draws me deeper into the life of Paul because he seems to be able to do a lot of things and hold them all in tension.

00:04:05:09 – 00:04:08:11
Michael Gewecke
And I think that’s a really interesting reflection of a person of faith.

00:04:08:51 – 00:04:54:01
Clint Loveall
I don’t know that I could make this case. There may be holes in it. Michael So feel free to push back. But as I think of Paul and the three roles that we’ve kind of delineated for Paul, I think of Paul, the theologian, as the foundation. I think that Paul’s thinking through the faith, him leaving his fears, saying background informed by it, coming in to Christ, beginning to question what that means, His ability to dialog with the Scriptures that we would call the Old Testament and put together a coherent way to understand what God had done in Jesus is for Paul, the foundation upon which He stands.

00:04:54:27 – 00:05:30:18
Clint Loveall
But as He stands on it, and this is where I envision I think he faces two directions as a missionary. He faces the world and he and he is out proclaiming Christ to Jews and Gentiles. He’s arguing. He’s he’s informed by that theology, but he’s essentially presenting Jesus to the world. And then I think there’s the other part where Paul turns around and faces the church, and I think that outward facing Paul and inward facing Paul are not different people.

00:05:30:41 – 00:06:00:36
Clint Loveall
There’s a consistency to Paul, but they say different things, right? And they they solve different problems and they face different challenges. And, you know, full disclosure, complete confession. As a pastor, I find the pastoral reading of Paul most interesting because I feel like I overlap with it the most. I feel like I perhaps understand it the best. I’ve never been shipwrecked while trying to go preach in some foreign country.

00:06:01:01 – 00:06:29:54
Clint Loveall
I have dealt with it, which issues and tried to help people with advice or insight as they face struggles. I have thought about when the church has moments that it has to wrestle with something. How do we do that best? And so perhaps I’m just more sensitive to that reading of Paul or may be more attuned to it, but I think in some ways, for me personally, and I don’t suggest it should be firm, but pastoral, Paul is is the most intriguing to me.

00:06:30:16 – 00:07:02:58
Michael Gewecke
So I think Clint and feel free to disagree with this. I think some people joining us here for this conversation may have, you know, not the most positive, warm feelings for Paul. I think that Paul is a little bit of a divisive figure in the New Testament, especially if you’re an individual who’s read some of the sections of Paul where he’s making very concrete statements about women and their role in the church, or you’ve heard Paul make an argument about what conduct is and isn’t in bounds of the Christian church.

00:07:02:58 – 00:07:04:06
Clint Loveall
Not getting married.

00:07:04:08 – 00:07:24:01
Michael Gewecke
Yeah, right. Yeah. So there’s a whole selection in the New Testament of things that has at different points in history been held up. Even Paul writing a letter to a slave owner has been used in American history for some very particular. And so if you come to Paul that way we might admit from the outset that there could be some really troubled waters here.

00:07:24:01 – 00:07:50:58
Michael Gewecke
You might not like. Paul in the midst of the pantheon of New Testament figures. And that if that’s the case for you, that’s understandable. In fact, you know, that may be an interesting point to enter into this conversation. I would say, though, that when you read Paul from a pastoral perspective, I think what you begin to see is that Paul is, yes, a theologian in addressing some big universal things that is in Paul.

00:07:50:58 – 00:08:29:22
Michael Gewecke
And and we talked about that last week. But Paul’s also a very practical down to earth deal with this issue. Individual. And if you overemphasize last week’s conversation, if you over emphasize the broad umbrella of theological hard lines that Paul does actually draw and you pretend that Paul does that in every situation, I do think you put yourself in a really precarious situation because Paul will, for instance, make very specific instructions about the way that women should behave in church in one letter and then another.

00:08:29:22 – 00:08:53:24
Michael Gewecke
Talk about his collaborative leadership work with women in the church. Talk about women who are leaders. Positive statements about that leadership. And so that’s the kind of tension I think that is so important to talk about with Paul, because if you want to make Paul a one figured person, then you’re going to end up in some really strange dead ends.

00:08:53:24 – 00:09:25:24
Michael Gewecke
If you’re rather willing to look at Paul from a multifaceted perspective, I think you see he has some absolutes that he’s trying to live out theologically, but in his pastoral work, he’s trying to be sensitive to the people that he’s serving and that spirit, I think, makes Paul a fascinating pastoral figure because he tries to bring constant truth in the midst of human lived life, which is always in the process of transformation and conflict and all of the things that it is to be human.

00:09:25:40 – 00:09:38:31
Michael Gewecke
And we find Paul making some really interesting moves within that and counsel within that I think may soften him for folks who may come into the conversation, maybe even with a negative view of Paul.

00:09:39:52 – 00:10:19:01
Clint Loveall
I want a long practice because it may not sound controversial, but I think there there could be controversy in it. From our perspective. I don’t think the idea of hearing Paul say different things as reformed Christians. I think maybe that’s an idea that we can be comfortable with. If you are a person that lives further on the right side, if you if you think of scripture as kind of flat and uniform, if you think of Paul or if you’re uncomfortable by the idea that Paul may have spoken with different voices, obviously this is going to be much harder.

00:10:19:01 – 00:10:45:14
Clint Loveall
And this may not sound acceptable to you, but I think, Michael, one of the things from our perspective that helps us is to be able to ask the question, not which Paul, again, I don’t want to assume Paul has like multiple personalities, but what is Paul functioning as in this moment? You know, if you if you read a book like Romans, Yes, there’s some pastoral moments in it, but that is far in a way.

00:10:45:30 – 00:11:25:24
Clint Loveall
Paul, The theologian, if you read first Corinthians, Paul again, is informed by his theology. But the vast bulk of that letter is dealing with issues, dealing with problems, being a pastor. And and I think when we read some of those statements that trouble us from Paul, it is helpful to be able to at least imagine the conversation. Is Paul here being a theologian, making a statement for the entire church, or is Paul being a pastor dealing in the context of these relationships and this individual or this place?

00:11:25:51 – 00:11:52:51
Clint Loveall
And I think that’s a helpful if we can do that and if we can become comfortable with the conclusion we reach, I do think it helps in some of those moments. You know, for instance, I think Paul gets sometimes the perception is that Paul is kind of a strict legalistic, that that Paul is big on rules and laws.

00:11:53:09 – 00:12:17:43
Clint Loveall
And there are moments when that’s true. I think if you ask Paul where the theological boundaries are, those are hard lines. I mean, those are the those are dark, don’t cross warning, do not, you know, do not overstep. But then you think of Paul’s words to people who thought some food was sacred and other food wasn’t. And he says, Eat what you want.

00:12:18:03 – 00:12:51:10
Clint Loveall
It doesn’t. It doesn’t matter. Be grateful. Don’t offend your brother or sister by eating, you know, and so there is a fluidity with which Paul approaches a lot of issues that I think gets overshadowed by those times that he seems inflexible. And when he’s being inflexible, I think for the most part, not exclusively, but generally speaking, I think we see Paul being inflexible theologically, whereas I do think he’s inclined to be pretty flexible practically.

00:12:51:25 – 00:13:11:38
Michael Gewecke
Yeah. So maybe a practical example, this just to bring one up, I think there’s many here, Clint, but I just to pick one, I have here first Corinthians chapter three and growing up, Clint, this chapter, I’ll throw it up here so you can see this, this chapter has specifically this section here about, you know, I fed you with milk, not solid food.

00:13:11:58 – 00:13:45:27
Michael Gewecke
When I grew up, this was interpreted as Paul saying, you know, I haven’t given you the spiritual meat. Right. That I haven’t given you the theological depth. Right. Because you are infants, your children. And the way that it was read was that what you want to be is you want to be this spiritual, deep thinker. You want to be a person who has the theology, who who can go deep in the faith and the temptation of reading a section like chapter three here like that is you miss every thing that follows.

00:13:45:27 – 00:14:12:46
Michael Gewecke
Clint is actually about these people claiming whose team they’re on, you know, So I belong to Paul, I belong to Apollos. And then Paul goes on to talk about we’re not in the competition. It’s not about who did the planting. It’s not even about who does the reaping. It’s about the God who does both of it. And I raise that as just a practical example to say I’m on the front end of it.

00:14:12:46 – 00:14:42:32
Michael Gewecke
It would be easy to make this statement. Hey, look, Paul’s saying what you need is theological knowledge. You need to know the depths of the truth when actually practically Paul is saying, stop picking teams, stop picking mascots for your team. So stop thinking that it matters which one did the original planting or which one you get to call your spiritual father, which one you call your leader because we’re all following Jesus.

00:14:42:48 – 00:15:07:58
Michael Gewecke
That’s the practical thing that Paul’s addressing in that particular moment in that congregation. And in some ways. Clint That’s surprising, you think? Paul would would try to sort of dispel that with the theological nugget, with whatever truth that is, and say, here it is. People know he he’s addressing a practical thing. He’s saying, stop doing this. And there are theological reasons behind it.

00:15:07:58 – 00:15:17:20
Michael Gewecke
But Clint, this is is chiefly an example, I think, of Paul being practical and speaking to a people and trying to address their concerns.

00:15:17:43 – 00:15:25:10
Clint Loveall
Yeah, in fact, he uses they’re divided in this as the evidence that they’re not ready for deep spiritual.

00:15:25:26 – 00:15:26:49
Michael Gewecke
Exactly right. Exactly.

00:15:26:49 – 00:15:53:13
Clint Loveall
For Paul, that is the sign that they’re not yet able to process the things that he wants to tell them because they haven’t even been able to do the simple stuff. You know, there’s another really fascinating example, Michael, that that I have always thought was amazing. If you read a book like Galatians and yes, there are people that will argue whether or not that Paul wrote it, but for our purposes, that’s Paul’s letter.

00:15:53:13 – 00:16:28:03
Clint Loveall
And if you read that letter, one of the primary issues that comes up is circumcision. And Paul just absolutely digs in his heels. Under no circumstances would you allow yourself to be circumcised. That’s going back. That’s trusting the former covenant. That’s that’s not trusting grace that you don’t need that that that’s imposing on the Gentiles. This was an argument he made in Jerusalem with the counsel that that’s imposing on the Gentiles something that is not found in the gracious mercy of Christ.

00:16:28:03 – 00:16:54:57
Clint Loveall
And so he makes this very deep, very passionate, it very edgy at one point tells them, look, if you want to circumcise yourself, go ahead and castrate yourself. Right? I mean, he he he minces no words in making this case. Then you flip over to the Book of Acts and he’s with Timothy, who is a gentile, and he is going to visit a Jewish community that is very high strung.

00:16:55:33 – 00:17:28:33
Clint Loveall
And in the I think it’s the third verse of the 16th chapter, it says Paul had Timothy circumcised because of their audience, because of the Jews that they were going to visit and their sensitivities. Now, how do you how do you reconcile those two things? Well, Paul doesn’t believe that Timothy needs to be circumcised. He stands on his theological ground.

00:17:28:51 – 00:17:51:55
Clint Loveall
And yet Paul, the pastor, is looking at all the potential problems and saying, you know what, this just doesn’t matter. And because it doesn’t matter like eating meat or, you know, this day versus that because it’s essentially, in his mind, irrelevant, he can go ahead and do it without without negating what he’d already said. He’s not being a hypocrite.

00:17:51:55 – 00:18:18:12
Clint Loveall
I don’t think he’s, you know, schizophrenic or anything like that in his in his approach. He simply doesn’t see it as an issue theologically in that moment, because he knows it doesn’t matter and it helps him pastorally. It helps him relationally. So he just knocks down the hurdle before it gets in the way. And I think, you know, that’s fascinating and that’s very difficult to read.

00:18:18:12 – 00:18:51:54
Clint Loveall
If you want to flatten Paul and say he everything he does is the same, that’s very hard to reconcile. And I think the same. You brought up some of the language about women. I think that’s similar If you think Paul said one thing and it covers everything, I think you have a hard time accounting for those moments that he did something maybe not in keeping entirely with what he said, because what he said was a theological principle and what he did was something that he believed didn’t matter and would be beneficial in the context.

00:18:52:13 – 00:19:21:01
Michael Gewecke
Well, because, Paul, I think you can say consistently is convicted that his theology or what he believes, we throw that word around theology is what you believe is true. What what you believe about God and God’s revelation for the world. Paul believes that that God has revealed himself in Jesus Christ. He believes that, and He also believes that that revelation has a way of shaping real people’s lives where they are and in their place.

00:19:21:01 – 00:19:46:21
Michael Gewecke
And so you see in places like Ephesus, Paul will change his language just a little bit when he’s witnessing in the Book of Acts. You’ll see that when he’s surrounded by philosophers, he changes his language just a little bit. That’s how Paul suddenly be coming to mind. Yet that’s Paul recognizing that the gospel has a different force in this place.

00:19:46:21 – 00:20:11:52
Michael Gewecke
The truth is translated here in this context, in a different way. And what’s really, really, I think, important about that, Clint, is you come to the text and for a moment you suspend some of the assumptions that you make. And I think circumcision is maybe of the examples, one of the better ones, because circumcision for the contemporary Christian is not a defining facet of faith.

00:20:11:52 – 00:20:40:06
Michael Gewecke
It has really been settled historically. And so for for the Gentile Christian today, for the Western, certainly American Christian, whether or not you’re circumcised has literally nothing to do with the expression of your faith. But for Paul, working in the midst of a Jewish church and the Christian church and those growing both together and flowing out of each other, this is a real practical concern.

00:20:40:22 – 00:21:07:28
Michael Gewecke
So while for us it may not raise our hackles for us, this doesn’t get us on the edge of our seats. This was an issue that raised people’s hackles. This did get people at the edge of their seats. This caused real, legitimate debate. And so if you can put yourself in that perspective for just a moment and you’re willing to accept that this was a really, really big deal, then you might be unsafe.

00:21:07:28 – 00:21:32:02
Michael Gewecke
Satisfied, actually, when you come to the book of Galatians here, Clint, and he starts talking about in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor on circumcision counts for anything. If you put yourself in the perspective for a moment and you remember how big of a deal this was, how contentious of an issue this was for the earliest generation of Christians, Paul just said, It doesn’t matter.

00:21:32:36 – 00:21:54:07
Michael Gewecke
And that’s the practical pastoral theologian that we might miss because we don’t have the same kind of emotional investment in some of these issues. But Fred’s, if we understand the powder keg that this was resting on, and you see Paul just dismissing it, saying, theologically, guys, we need to we need to not get hung up on this thing.

00:21:54:14 – 00:22:13:06
Michael Gewecke
We need to we need to hang our entire lives on Jesus Klein. I mean, that is a strong theological statement. And it was controversial. And in some ways I think it sets a model for how people expect the church to encounter our own worlds and the translation of the gospel within them.

00:22:13:13 – 00:22:40:21
Clint Loveall
Yeah, it’s a really fascinating moment that the same man who says, if you’re circumcised, stay that way. If you’re not, stay that way, then tells Timothy, in the midst of one of his missionary journeys and meeting with Jews, let’s just go ahead and do that. And again, I don’t I don’t think that makes Paul a hypocrite. I think because of his theology, because of his understanding, he feels the freedom to do that.

00:22:40:21 – 00:23:06:09
Clint Loveall
And you made the case, Michael, that he changes his approach, he changes his language, he changes the points that he makes, like anyone would do knowing their context, right. That knowing what it takes to be heard in First Corinthians, which again, I would say is a very pastoral book, are those wonderful words that are well known to the Jews.

00:23:06:09 – 00:23:31:28
Clint Loveall
I became as a Jew to those under the law. I became as one under the law, though I’m not to the outside of the law, I became as one outside to the weak. I became the weak. I became all things to all people that I might save some. And I think that’s the pastoral heart of Paul. What does it take to engage these people?

00:23:31:46 – 00:24:24:41
Clint Loveall
What does it take to lead this congregation and what does it take to navigate this issue in a way that is consistent theologically, but more important, consistent to the God that Paul understands has offered us Christ? And I again, I find that Paul fascinating. I find that that work of Paul intriguing, the Paul that is willing to say hard things that people don’t want to hear, but then the Paul who who won’t give up on the church being the church and encourages people though in amazing moments when he says, you know, some of you used to be Protestant prostitutes and murderers and etc., and you used to do these things, I mean, if the if

00:24:24:41 – 00:24:27:09
Clint Loveall
those things are accurate, that’s a rough bunch.

00:24:27:19 – 00:24:27:43
Michael Gewecke
Right?

00:24:27:43 – 00:24:55:04
Clint Loveall
And Paul continues compellingly to tell them, but that’s not who you are now. So don’t act like that. Act like the thing you have been invited to be. Live into the grace and the identity that you’ve been given in Christ. You are already those things. Don’t let anything hold you back. And I find that Paul very compelling. Paul is an absolute stunning intellectual.

00:24:55:30 – 00:25:15:14
Clint Loveall
His theological chops are almost unprecedented. But for me, when Paul applies himself and his leadership to how do I help people live out their faith, that’s when I that’s when my ears perked up, I think.

00:25:15:37 – 00:25:36:21
Michael Gewecke
And I think, Clint, that may be a really helpful textual example that I think you are pointing us towards here. Just to throw up is from, you know, first 29 here and he is talking about this idea to the week I became weeks so I might win the week I become all things to all people. I might by all means save some.

00:25:36:30 – 00:25:56:38
Michael Gewecke
But I think verse 23 is critical here, Clint. I do it all for the sake of the gospel that is the beautiful move, I think here in Paul is he can say, Listen, I’m trying to meet people where they’re at, but it’s all for this purpose, for the good news of Jesus Christ that we’re gospel means good news.

00:25:56:38 – 00:26:20:29
Michael Gewecke
It’s the idea of proclamation. Good news is only news if it’s shared. So for Paul, this intrinsic reality is that he’s seeking to connect with humans where they are recognizing the complexities of being human, whether they’re gentile or whether they’re Jew, whether they’re circumcised, whether they’re not, whether they eat foods sacrificed to idols or whether they don’t, whether they’re married or whether they’re not.

00:26:20:49 – 00:26:39:46
Michael Gewecke
All of these and this is a small list, are things that Paul addresses in his letters. In the midst of all of that complexity, Paul sees it all for the gospel and no, it’s the gospel. And I think if we had Paul, if we had the luxury of having him here at the table, we would have already talked way too much.

00:26:39:57 – 00:27:05:02
Michael Gewecke
What he would have, what I think he would share with us would be an uncompromising view that Jesus has changed everything, that that Jesus has transformed the world. I think what we would also find is that the world is much more large and complex for Paul than what we sometimes give him credit. He recognizes that Jesus has changed everything and everything is a lot.

00:27:05:31 – 00:27:25:22
Michael Gewecke
And so he’s trying to address people where they are. He’s trying to speak words that are meaningful. And, you know, when people get hung up on what should I eat, what should I not eat, which, by the way, Clint, some of those conversations still happen in our modern time, in some cases for health reasons, for some cases for spiritual reasons.

00:27:25:35 – 00:27:57:30
Michael Gewecke
When that happens, I think Paul says, let’s not get hung up on that. Let let’s whatever you do what whether you eat that or don’t eat that, do it to the glory of God, whether you practice this day of rest or whether you practice a different way of Sabbath, do it to the glory of God. I think Paul is maybe comfortable with the interpretation of the Gospel in a variety of contexts, in a way that cuts against even some of our own cultural assumptions.

00:27:57:30 – 00:28:23:52
Michael Gewecke
Claim if you’re a Western American, that you have this idea of individualism and free choice. Maybe we maybe we have gotten into the habit of thinking, Yeah, but I’ve got my group, I’ve chosen this group and this is what we do. It’s right. Maybe Paul does offer a critique for us to say. Now all of that is subject to the ordering of God’s will, and our ultimate purpose is to discern that.

00:28:24:07 – 00:28:45:12
Michael Gewecke
And then for that to have a real practical import in our lives. Now, that’s messy. I mean, that opens the door to lots of difficult conversations, but maybe that helps us see why when Paul writes, he can often be very direct. I mean, the word that came to mind first was caustic, but I don’t think he was intending to be caustic.

00:28:45:12 – 00:29:06:19
Michael Gewecke
I think he was seeking to make strong points to make it clear that it matters that you behave in the proper way. And so maybe that provides for us a little bit of evidence as to some of the difficult of being people of faith. We, too, will have to have some direct and challenging conversations if we’re going to live out the faith together.

00:29:06:43 – 00:29:49:21
Clint Loveall
Yeah, I don’t I don’t want to, you know, beat this thing into the ground, Michael. But I think, you know, again, Paul, the theologian, when he feels like people go outside the bounds, he says things like, I handed them over to Satan or have nothing to do with them. And and yet in other instances where there’s an argument in the church, he urges, he says, please help the people who are arguing, Please try to have unity and Paul, his bias for the church is oneness because he believes that oneness most challenging in the form of Jew Gentile in his context.

00:29:49:21 – 00:30:22:01
Clint Loveall
But he believes that oneness reflects what God has done in the cross. For Paul, it’s always about Jesus, but because of what Jesus has done, Paul believes that we are one people and that the distinctions and divisions that the world uses don’t belong in the church. And so Paul can on one hand speak theologically about something like sin, and it’s bigger than we think it is.

00:30:22:22 – 00:30:48:12
Clint Loveall
Because when Paul speaks theologically about sin, he doesn’t mean the things we do. He means the condition of our heart. He means our bias toward rebellion. He means our disobedience, our selfishness, the inner plagues. And when Paul speaks pastorally about sin, that’s still there. But then he says, Look, yeah, if you eat it, you don’t sin. If you get married, you don’t sin.

00:30:48:12 – 00:31:20:38
Clint Loveall
If you don’t get married, you don’t sin. Here’s what I think. But he actually goes so far at one point to say, this is not a word from the Lord, it’s my opinion. I just think there is an openness to Paul that gets that gets lost. And to see him apply that openness to navigating challenges inside what we would call congregations or communities of faith, I think is really is really helpful.

00:31:20:38 – 00:31:55:57
Clint Loveall
It’s we I think we we run the risk of doing Paul a disservice when we take Paul’s pastoral words and try to build theology on them. I really think it only works the other way around. I think the theology has to inform that the practical I don’t think it works well to go the other direction. And I think often we’ve tried to do that now is theologian and Bible scholars.

00:31:55:58 – 00:32:19:30
Clint Loveall
Historians could maybe tear that apart. But but as I read it, Michael, I, I think you have to understand, Paul, theologically so that you can see how Paul’s theology allows him some flexibility practically. I, I don’t think you can start with the flexibility and get to the theology. I really think that’s kind of a one way street.

00:32:19:46 – 00:32:46:12
Michael Gewecke
Yeah, and you mentioned this earlier, Clint, but I think it’s important that we emphasize, I think what is a consistent note throughout Paul’s letters. I think if you look at a book like the Corinthians first and Second Corinthians, they’re obviously a congregation with a lot of tumult. There’s a lot of social things happening there. And so, you know, in that sense, Paul’s addressing a lot of things is like a lot of Whac-A-Mole happening in that letter.

00:32:46:22 – 00:33:12:28
Michael Gewecke
There are other layers like Philippians, where that’s less the case, where his his instructions are more positive, more encouraging, and there’s less directive, less sort of dealing with particular issues. Though, interestingly, if you look at Paul’s letters, I think a constant crimson thread is the reflection of Christ in the unity of the body. He uses the language of unity.

00:33:12:28 – 00:33:36:00
Michael Gewecke
He uses the language of body, he uses the language of spirit. He talks about being in Christ. These are all different ways. And by the way, we could go on for a long, long time with all of the different metaphors and ways that Paul directs the churches and that I mean, plural, all of the churches he writes to when he directs their attention to something, it is consistently to unity.

00:33:36:00 – 00:33:59:25
Michael Gewecke
And, you know, I want to just give an example here from first Corinthians again here, verse 18. He’s about to talk about communion, and he’s talking about there are divisions among you. And I believe that there have to be factions among you. So it will become clear who among you are genuine. Paul has very harsh language for the factions that happened in church.

00:33:59:25 – 00:34:18:16
Michael Gewecke
He’s going to go on to talk about the Lord’s Supper and say that actually the way you’re practicing the Lord’s Supper shows not your unity, but your divisions. It shows your selfishness, it shows the ways that you’re trying to puff yourself up and make yourself great. And he comes down hard, says this should not be the way that it is in the Christian church.

00:34:18:16 – 00:35:02:58
Michael Gewecke
And so I think that is manna in many ways. Maybe even today. The most troubling aspect of Paul’s pastoral theology is because that’s hard work. I mean, if you take Paul at face value, if you just say, Hey, Paul meant what he said, and he really cared about the unity of the church, He let’s let’s for a moment believe that he conceived of the church as one body, then it is absolutely reprehensible when we find ourselves dividing the body, when we find ourselves cutting one another off from each other and we find ourselves One of his letters, Paul talks about the church is having members suing one another.

00:35:02:58 – 00:35:36:25
Michael Gewecke
I mean, practically when the church fails to live out that the difficult, painful, sometimes grueling work of living together, I don’t want to pretend as if that’s an easy task that we just set our mind to. And that happens. But, Clint, I mean, if you’re willing to allow that the Pastor Paul, cared about the unity of the church and the people living peacefully, not just where they live, but in Christian fellowship with one another, that is a very strong and convicting marching order for what it means to be church.

00:35:36:25 – 00:36:00:32
Clint Loveall
Absolutely. And and I think that’s a great example, Michael, because there we see Paul, the pastor, but we see Paul undergirded by Paul, the theologian. Why does it matter so much that the church acts the church? Why why are these divisions so troubling? Because Paul, the theologian, believes that in the cross of Jesus Christ, God has reconciled himself to the world.

00:36:00:50 – 00:36:30:59
Clint Loveall
And that means that God has reconciled people to one another in the grace of Christ. We are forgiven and we forgive. In the grace of Christ, we are brought into the person of Christ, the body of Christ. And as we as we join each other in that body, it then becomes an insult to the body. It becomes a foreign reality to let division and divisiveness fester within that body.

00:36:31:17 – 00:36:59:07
Clint Loveall
And Paul believes that it’s good for the church, but the reason it’s good for the church is because it reflects the goodness of God in the covenant of Christ. And so those things are inseparable. And and yet this same Paul will say in a couple of different instances, you know it right there in the same letter, Michael in Corinthians, Hey, you have a guy doing something that’s unacceptable.

00:36:59:36 – 00:37:31:51
Clint Loveall
Put him outside of your fellowship and hopes that he will repent because it’s unity can’t be practiced at the cost of faithfulness. Unity can’t be the blanket we all live under when there is sin and when there is things that go beyond the pale of how Christians are called to live and think. The same would be true in places like Galatians, where those outsiders were trying to sell a different gospel.

00:37:31:51 – 00:37:54:34
Clint Loveall
They were trying to teach that you could be saving Jesus, but you had to get circumcised to do it. And Paul says, Absolutely have nothing to do with them. So unity is the core of how Paul understands the church, but it’s a unity that has to be centered in the cross, centered on the cross, and isn’t negotiable. In.

00:37:54:34 – 00:38:24:03
Clint Loveall
In many ways, though, how you practice it is eat that food. I’ll eat my food. We’ll come together for communion, we’ll share a meal, you know, be good to each other. But theology, equally or behaviorally, when you get outside of the bounds, there’s danger to Paul. And you know, it just I think you need both lenses to understand Paul’s experience and encapsulation of the gospel.

00:38:24:03 – 00:38:28:26
Clint Loveall
You just you can’t look at it from one or the other. I really think you need both.

00:38:28:42 – 00:38:52:01
Michael Gewecke
And we’re not going to linger here. I don’t think we’ll stay here long, but I think it needs mentioned in a conversation about Paul. Clint, is it strike ing when you read his letters? How often Paul talks about things as practical as praying. And you know, if you’re a theologian and reading Paul, it’s easy to read past a lot of the stuff in his letters as fluff, right?

00:38:52:01 – 00:39:10:39
Michael Gewecke
He he talks about these deep theological concepts all the way through. ROMANS And it would be easy to think that’s who Paul is. And let’s talk about grace. Let’s talk about faith. Let’s talk about reconciliation. Let’s talk about atonement. Right? Let’s get into Paul Right. But you look at a book like Philippians here. This is Philippians chapter one, verse three.

00:39:10:51 – 00:39:34:17
Michael Gewecke
I thank my God every time I remember you constantly praying with joy in every one of my prayers for all of you. Now, that’s beautiful language. And if we dare to think that Paul meant it, that means that Paul’s praying that he’s a man of spiritual discipline, that he is thinking of this congregation, that this isn’t just platitude.

00:39:34:17 – 00:39:57:46
Michael Gewecke
It’s not just happy theological strung together in a sentence. No, Paul truly cares and is truly praying for these folks. And so it’s, I think, just a very helpful frame, because when you have someone in the Bible like Paul, it’s easy to put them up on a mantel and say that they are the illustration of perfect Christian. You know, they’re human.

00:39:57:46 – 00:40:27:21
Michael Gewecke
Paul He’s a human. He’s a fully human person seeking to live out his faith. Now he’s brilliant. He is living in an incredibly important moment in the distribution of the gospel, in the spreading of the church and of the work of the spirit. But he’s also on his knees praying. That’s my point. I mean, at the end of the day, Paul is also doing the same spiritual practices were called to, and in that he’s just Brother Paul.

00:40:27:21 – 00:40:34:58
Michael Gewecke
He’s is another disciple seeking to follow Jesus. And and there’s a way in which that humanizes him, I think, in a helpful way.

00:40:35:34 – 00:41:03:39
Clint Loveall
Yeah. You know, Michael, it one of the dangers, I suppose, of talking about Paul in view of his roles is that our perception of those roles may not be entirely accurate. You know, when we think of theologian, we think of smart person in an office at a seminary, right? They read books and they think through ideas and they teach and they preach.

00:41:03:39 – 00:41:32:47
Clint Loveall
When we think of a pastor, we think of somebody who engages with a conversation with people, with a congregation of people. When we think of missionary, we might think of some of the challenges. But there’s a fascinating passage in Second Corinthians where Paul’s sort of apostle ship has been challenged and in the 11th chapter he responds to that and he gives what is what he kind of presents as his resume.

00:41:32:47 – 00:41:51:46
Clint Loveall
In other words, people have been saying, what’s so great about Paul, You don’t need to listen to him. We’ve done more than Paul, we’re better than Paul. And Paul says, okay, you’ve kind of forced me into this. I don’t really want to do it, but but I’ll answer it. And here’s my resume. He calls it his fool’s boast.

00:41:51:46 – 00:42:17:27
Clint Loveall
And I just want to read a couple of these things, and I want you to think about that. This is all the same man, the same man who brilliantly writes. ROMANS The same man who preaches and teaches the same man who has taken the gospel throughout his world, also says this I have far more imprisonments, countless floggings, sometimes near death.

00:42:18:12 – 00:42:53:20
Clint Loveall
Five times I have received the 40 lashes minus one three times I was beaten with rods. Once I received a stoning, three times I was shipwrecked. And then he goes on and on and on. I think at our peril. We forget that among all the other things Paul was, he was scarred and he was bruised and he was bent and he was hobbled because of the punishment he endured for his passion about Jesus Christ.

00:42:53:20 – 00:43:28:42
Clint Loveall
And we shouldn’t we shouldn’t separate that when we talk about this man who is pastoring when we talk about this man. But Paul has literally earned his stripes. He has been beaten, he has been whipped, and he will not quit. His tenacity to continue to take what he believes to be God’s saving word to the world and share it with people in whatever way that he can and knock down whatever hurdles get in the way of people responding to it and living into it.

00:43:29:02 – 00:44:01:53
Clint Loveall
I you know, I think we can argue about whether Paul should have said this or should have done that, though those are fine. I don’t think we should forget this, that at the core of Paul is also a man who is unwilling to stop. Maybe even we could go so far, Michael, to say unable to stop. He he is compelled to do the work of Jesus Christ as missionary, as theologian, as pastor.

00:44:02:04 – 00:44:34:46
Clint Loveall
But the three of those things coalesce. They come together. They are the one person that we look back on and call Paul. And he suffered for what he did. There was joy in it. There was beauty in it. There was wonder and amazement in it. But there was hardship in it. And I think that’s a helpful thing to keep in mind when a couple thousand years later we try to dissect what he said, what he meant when when we argue about the particulars.

00:44:34:46 – 00:44:38:00
Clint Loveall
I think this is helpful to to have in the mix.

00:44:38:38 – 00:45:11:18
Michael Gewecke
Yeah. Because ultimately Paul truly believes the gospel. Right. And I think that yeah, that is a thing that is easy to miss when you start dissecting perspectives or roles or you start thinking about, you know, whether the complexities of the person, it would be easy to think that you, you know, one day Paul puts on this pastor hat and another day puts his theologian hat, another day put on his traveler, another day puts on his tent making hat.

00:45:11:18 – 00:45:39:00
Michael Gewecke
You know, I mean, it would be easy to think that it could be done that cleanly, but it can’t. I mean, the reality is every day Paul woke up and put on this pants just like everybody else that day. And one of the things that is unique about Paul’s life is how clear of a vision he had, not just a vision of Jesus when he got knocked off a horse, but a vision of the Gospel of how Jesus changed everything.

00:45:39:00 – 00:46:04:31
Michael Gewecke
And he believed that to the very, very core of his being. So whether he was talking to a church that he knew well and was addressing pastoral concerns or whether it was a church he didn’t know well, like the Romans. And he’s addressing much higher theological conversation in the midst of all of that, in the midst of the beatings and the floggings and the and that trouble the shipwreck in the midst of all of that life lived.

00:46:04:48 – 00:46:26:20
Michael Gewecke
It was a person seeking to integrate the revelation of who Jesus Christ was. When we talk about the good news, we’re talking about Paul trying to live it. And if that is our only take away here in the conversation about Paul, I think that is what I hear Paul inviting us to, and he says, Follow Jesus as I follow me as I follow Jesus.

00:46:26:20 – 00:46:48:10
Michael Gewecke
This idea that Paul is telling us, you too, can have a vision for how Jesus changes everything, that good news can animate every part of your life. And if you’re a person joining us for this conversation, then you share like Clinton I, who are also in this circle, the constant need. We need for that gospel to renew our vision.

00:46:48:10 – 00:47:11:56
Michael Gewecke
We need to be reminded that that revelation changes everything. There’s a part of every one of our lives practically, that can be shaped by that revelation and friends. That is a beautiful gift to see in this man. Yes, you’re going to read things that Paul wrote. They’re going to trouble you. They’re going to challenge you. You’re not going to read Paul and always think happy fuzzy thought.

00:47:11:57 – 00:47:26:43
Michael Gewecke
So that’s that’s not going to happen. But you can read Paul and be inspired by a man who believe that Jesus changed everything, who tried to take that seriously in people’s real lives. And I think that we’re called to do the same.

00:47:27:14 – 00:47:53:04
Clint Loveall
I think reading Paul or considering all that we know of Paul, Michael is both inspirational and I mean, when you get down to it, this is a guy who got up every day who went out into the world to try and live the faith and share Jesus with people. And some days that meant that he preached and people listened and converted.

00:47:53:25 – 00:48:17:09
Clint Loveall
Some days that meant he had to sit down and write letters to incredibly messy, messed up churches. And some days it meant that that afternoon found him chained to a post taking a beating. Right. Right. And the incredible thing about Paul is that at the end of every one of those days, he gave thanks for what had happened in it.

00:48:17:09 – 00:48:47:22
Clint Loveall
He gave thanks for God being with him. He gave thanks even for the rough spots and the suffering that the gospel had had brought to him because he was so deeply and completely that the cross of Christ was the center of who he was and who he was to be. And and the thing that God was doing in the world.

00:48:47:22 – 00:49:17:49
Clint Loveall
And again, if you don’t like some of what Paul says, you probably in a lot, probably in a big company. But at the end of the day, for me, this is a man who deeply sought to live out the faith and did so even amidst challenging times. And I think we we who inherit that owe him a great debt in terms of all of the roles that he filled.

00:49:18:19 – 00:49:32:47
Clint Loveall
I, I don’t yeah, I don’t know where the church would be without Paul. And that that gives me that gives me a humbling, humbled appreciation for who he was and what he did.

00:49:33:16 – 00:49:49:42
Michael Gewecke
Yeah, I think that’s an excellent summary and so I’m not going to add to that. I’m only going to say thank you for joining us this far into this conversation. Of course, a short series, three talks about Paul, this is the first you joined. We encourage you check out the first one about sort of his autobiography, his life.

00:49:49:42 – 00:50:20:07
Michael Gewecke
And we talked about his theology and here talking about his practical pastoral sort of perspective. Hope there’s been something along this way that’s been helpful for you. Also want to say, friends, if you are listening to this by the audio podcast, please go out of your way. Just today we asked a give this podcast a review that actually has a way of sort of telling the podcast place wherever you’re listening that other people might enjoy this.

00:50:20:20 – 00:50:40:10
Michael Gewecke
So if you found it helpful, definitely give it a review. Five stars, if you would. If you’re watching this on YouTube now there is an audio version of this and feel free to jump in and subscribe to that and if you’re on YouTube, feel free to subscribe and like we’d love to have you join us for the next conversation, which I think is going to be engaging.

00:50:40:10 – 00:50:43:45
Michael Gewecke
So glad to have you with us here today. Our friends be blessed. See you next week.

00:50:43:46 – 00:51:06:37
Clint Loveall
Thanks, everybody. Hey, we want to thank you for listening to this broadcast. We’re grateful for the support and the connections, the relationships we get to make through some of these offerings. We hope that they’ve been helpful. We know that there are lots of choices that you have, lots of things you can listen to. We want to make you aware of some of what we’re doing, and we greatly appreciate you being a part of it.

00:51:06:52 – 00:51:25:44
Michael Gewecke
Absolutely. We want to just thank you for being one of our audio podcast listeners. It’s amazing to have you with us in the midst of our conversations. Of course, I hope you know that you can find the whole archive of all of these conversations at Pastor Taco. We would love for you to join us there. You can find options for subscribing by email.

00:51:25:58 – 00:51:59:22
Michael Gewecke
You can easily share things there with other people who you think might appreciate recordings like this. And of course, we just want to welcome you. If you’re ever interested in joining us for the video podcast, you can do that on YouTube. It is YouTube.com, FBC Spirit Lake. There you can comment and engage with us, or if you would prefer to do that without going to YouTube, you can actually just click the link in the description of this podcast where you will be able to send us form and information and reach out to us.

00:51:59:34 – 00:52:16:03
Michael Gewecke
We’d love to hear from you and engage in conversation with you. Thanks again for taking time to be with us. We look forward to our next conversation and can’t wait to see you then.