Presbyterian Authority & Practice

Hello friends and welcome back to the pastor talk podcast.
We continue on on this series.
We’re calling Presby What we are thrilled to have you join us wherever you are and whatever time you’ve been able to make to join the conversation
We’re thrilled about that if you have not been listening to the previous conversations
If you’re just jumping in right here welcome,
we’re glad that you’re here
I do think Clint there would be some merit in going back and starting
maybe not if in the beginning if you don’t have time for that,
but I would at least listen to the
Reformation history and the Presbyterian history pieces.
I think those will help give some context to today’s conversation
If you look at the title,
you might not think right away
Presbyterian authority and practice that this is going to be the most exciting conversation though
Historically, and this is why I think those conversations that were previous matter Clint that historically the way that we govern ourselves
Has been a direct expression of some of the things that we believe about humanity
We are very sensitive to the idea of human sinfulness that humans if left to their own devices will tend to pursue
selfishness and pride and so the
structures of governing of ordering the sort of process in which we seek to live out our faith in practice has been given a lot of
Thought and so as we turn our attention to that today
We’ll try to make it as interesting as we possibly can of course
But also we want to try to give you a little bit of a sense of the nuts and bolts of how things work
And maybe a little bit of the of the why they work that way
Yeah, I don’t think it would surprise anybody Michael to know that Presbyterians have put a ton of thought into our theology
into our worship into church
But equally so we have spent a great deal of time over the years
Trying to figure out the best way to be organized the best way to be structured the best way to accomplish things and get things
Done not only at church level,
but at the national level.
How do we ordain officers?
how do we train pastors we we
Probably could easily dismiss those things or maybe miss those things
But there is an enormous
Field of stuff that has to be navigated in order to be a denomination and as we have lived into that
I suspect we’ve put as much time and effort in and probably battles into those fronts as
Just about everything else that we’ve done and they have a direct impact
On our day-to-day
Being the church we may not always feel it in a place like Spirit Lake,
but the reality is
What we do up and down the structure of our?
Matters and it it’s in some level at some level and in some way sets direction for us even here
Yeah, and as we start to look at this we’ve decided just in terms of structuring it
We’re gonna talk from the top of the system down towards the local congregation
And I think as we do that you’re gonna see not only are you going to see some of that?
Responsibility ladder of what what happens as you go down the chain,
but I think pretty quickly
you’re gonna start to really have some resonances of
Doesn’t this sound familiar and it’s gonna sound a lot like the US governmental structure
It’s not the exact same,
but there’s very much higher to lower
Structures with different responsibilities that check each other all the way down the chain
And so this is not a foreign concept.
That’s the point I wanted to make is that Presbyterians?
Aren’t operating with some outlandish structure
in fact some of the leaders of the United States and it’s
Pre us form pre-constitution were Presbyterians and you there there’s some
Conversation that happened there though historically.
It’s a little tenuous to what extent it was significant
But but there there was at least knowledge of the Presbyterian system as we even started to get a sense of how we would govern
ourselves as a nation yeah on the very
Optimistic end there are people who say that the American pattern of government is built on or modeled after
The Presbyterian system, I think that may be wishful thinking on our part
But the reality is that some of the same assumptions right some of the same considerations
Did build both structures and they have some similarities where we are governed by elected people.
We do not have
professional rulers in the Presbyterian Church a person is elected as
We understand that they are called to serve in that moment.
And so
Fixed terms
Elections at every level
People who are commissioned to serve sent on behalf of others one of the differences
Probably just structurally and and maybe it’s helpful Michael to talk about some of the big
assumptions that we make all the way up and down the ladder of our structure our hierarchy is
that unlike
Democratic government where it’s understood that your senator or your congressman is sent to their position to
Represent you in the Presbyterian Church government is always to
Represent God and so when we ask someone to go serve at some level of church
We are not asking them to do what we want them to do
In other words, they don’t have to check back with the church and the church tells them how to vote
We have this idea that that God is the one that they are accountable to and that as God directs their
Conscious they are free to vote even in ways that perhaps their sending body
Wouldn’t necessarily have as majority and so our system does have a little bit more of an individual flair
I think then maybe the American government which we’re more used to in terms of hey
We put you in office so you would do these things and when you don’t do them
Then we’ll get someone else.
That’s not supposed to be how it works in the church
Sometimes there is that pressure but realistically we have always said we come from a different angle
Yeah, and I think this is a cousin to that Clint that there’s another distinction between your civic government and your
religious organization administration in that
we
codify we have literally written in our founding documents that that we are subject to
The ordering of the Word of God the leading of the Holy Spirit the Great Commission
we in fact did that study over the course of
The Lenten study a couple years ago two three years ago about the great ends of the church
That is literally written into the the the core
foundational documents of our
Structure and the intention in that is purposeful.
It’s to say that we as a
Organization as an administration
Seep to remain humble throughout all time for the revelation of God in Scripture that idea of reformed and reforming
And so the stuff that was written at the founding of the PC USA of the
Presbyterian incarnation in the United States was never intended to be
Constant forever.
It was never written in stone
The idea is that it will change as we have greater understanding of God’s will
They’ll change to reflect what is needed for ministry and that’s not always been an easy thing Clint
In fact, oftentimes we’ve had great disputes over our structure
Because some have said,
you know, we need to continue as we have and others have tried to change it
But but we do have built in this idea that since God is the one who we seek to serve
Everything should follow God’s leading and not some first idea and and in the more civic context
You know, we might talk about the American ideals freedom liberty for all right
These are the things that we appealed to but in the Presbyterian
Governance, we don’t appeal to these ideas
We appeal to the person of Jesus Christ to the actual work of God that we seek to follow and though that may be a nuanced
Distinction, I do think it matters.
Yeah, I think it’s important that the people who lived into our structure and
Gave it skin gave it bones
Gave it a physical sense of how we practice it.
I think it matters that they understood
That we always at best have some cloudy
Understanding of God’s leading and so they left in our governance of
Flexibility a way to change it going forward
It has it was never intended as something handed down to say this is what we will always do and I think there’s
Tremendous wisdom in that the recognition that in our brokenness
we will always hopefully be stumbling our way forward into better ways of being the church and
Our policies should be reflective of that.
They should be adaptable.
They should be changeable
We shouldn’t be dragging them with us when we find that they no longer are the best way for us
To move forward and be a congregation and I think that we’ll see
We’ll see some examples of that
that I think have happened even within the last couple of decades of ways in which the church has
Shifted some of what it does to try and be more responsive to the era in which it lives
And I think that’s a I think it’s a mark of faithfulness and wisdom on the part part of our founders
That they left us that kind of freedom
Now the only other thing I would mention Clint in terms of sort of overall themes would be representation
we we by intention Seek for our structures of leadership to represent the largest diversity that we possibly can so there’s a real commitment towards
Men and women being equally represented to whatever extent is possible
Same with racial diversity though.
We have to be honest.
The PC USA is not very racially diverse
So that kind of representation is not always present
But we do intentionally seek to find ways to bring as many people to the table as we possibly can that’s been a value
and another is we
Seek to at every level of our governing structure check and balance the power of the other levels
So you’re gonna find that there’s no place in the structure that rules by fiat
Presbyterianism is different from certainly Roman Catholicism where you have the Pope who can make decisions
That affect the chain all the way down there our general assembly can make decisions
But one would argue it doesn’t have that kind of breadth of power
We don’t have bishops
There’s not a single person who makes decisions about whether a pastor can or can’t stay in a church
Our presbytery which would be closer to that still has some restrictions in that we allow the congregations to make decisions
So I do think even related to some of our other sister
Denominations and church families.
We have a more distributed
Organizational structure that has checks and balances across the whole yeah,
and I would add to that Michael and it may be surprising to some people
The same is true with regard to the difference between
Laity and clergy so in in our system both serve in governance
Both are asked to serve at governmental levels and
There’s no preference an elder vote is exactly worth what a pastor vote is elders have
direct access to microphones and to submit
Propositions and and ideas the same as pastors do and and there is a sort of equality in which we say in regard to governance
Faithfulness in a church is not determined by one’s office and so elders
Primarily elders deacons at some level but less less
That’s less true for deacons as you move up the hierarchy
but elders and pastors serve together as
Equals and I think that again is a is a mark in our system which we can be proud of I
Think maybe we just start at the top and we start working our way down.
Does that seem fair?
Yeah, it does
so our
top level of government is called General Assembly and it’s been known as that for
I think for as long as we’ve been Presbyterian in the United States and our General Assembly is
Our national body and it’s primarily made up of commissioners.
There are smaller organizations called presbyteries
They have based on their size a number of commissioners.
They can send to General Assembly our General Assembly
Historically met every year currently.
We’ve been on an every other year cycle and that will likely continue and every two years our
commissioners from throughout the country gather in various places and
they have for about a week a meeting where they plow through the
Pertinent work of the church.
They have resolutions those governing bodies called presbyteries can submit resolutions
if they have ideas of things that are important to them or changes that should be made or
Interpretations of things and those things all have to be voted on they vote on
national and international issues
Whether we are going to make stances and statements whether we’re going to be involved in programs
They can make changes to our our guiding document.
So this is our book of order our book of order is
The thing would that we use to govern it’s kind of our rule book so to speak
It’s understood to be an expression of our theology
But it really is how we practice our life together being the church
That can be changed if they want to change things like that again one of the to your point earlier Michael one of the
merits of our system
They can’t simply do that that has to then go back down the chain and the presbyteries have to ratify the things
That the General Assembly has suggested so in those instances they can make recommendations
But they cannot make changes and I have you been to a General Assembly.
I have not I have it is
Yeah, there’s a lot happening there.
I showed up without voice or vote.
I was a spectator to the whole affair
Clint so this is maybe a point to note that was when was the new book of order passed?
2017 17, okay
No, not 2017 it was earlier than that it was I was it the new book of order was passed before I graduated seminaries at
2012 2011 sorry within remembered history.
We had a significant redraft of the book of order mostly a
Simplification of the book of order that was prominent before
and
and in that process
we had a significant change in some of the
Prescription that was handed down throughout all of these different systems the way that I named that is when you went to seminary
The book of order was much larger than when I went to seminary the book of order
Was about I think a third
By the time they got done with the sort of restructuring of of everything
And so the reason I bring that up when we’re talking about the General Assembly is I think the actual
Structural
Responsibility of General Assembly has slowly been changing over the years and the
The middle of the 20th century the the General Assembly was managing a rapidly growing
Denomination churches were thriving sanctuaries were being built there was this huge emphasis on channeling money towards missions
towards international partnerships with other churches around the world there’s presbyterian churches in Mexico and
Africa and the General Assembly was really passing resolutions and making connections across all of these things
but as the denomination
decreased in size Congregation size and the actual population of Presbyterians as we have less and less people
The the General Assembly I think has had less of that sort of structural growth
Responsibility because there’s not been growth and in many ways
I think the General Assembly has continued on and I want to be careful with my words here
I think the General Assembly often gives voice to a sort of denominational
Response to global and national issues oftentimes we hear from people following a General Assembly
Hey did the presbyterians just vote on an issue related to Israel or an issue related to
This particular social issue and I think very much the General Assembly has continued on
I’m not sure if it’s fair to say
Proportionally increased but there certainly has been a continuance of sort of a national body stance on different issues of the time
Yeah, I think that the thing that’s happened in the Presbyterian Church has happened to most
national organizations they have become
Less national and there was a time in which the General Assembly
comfortably made policies that were intended to span the breadth of the Presbyterian Church and
I think that has gotten less true.
I think that the
Presbyterian Church has now introduced a
more of a freedom at the
lower levels
for
Regional bodies to have the kind of authority to set their own direction
I think it has as and we see this in very recent history clearly as
the country
Seems to become more divided over issues.
It becomes increasingly difficult to make
positions and policies
speak for the entire range of those people and so it seems to me that what the General Assembly has
tended to do in recent history is to make recommendations that are then enacted at the local level and
Practical examples of what that means who can be ordained there was a time in which we said that was a national conversation
That has now become a regional conversation
What pastors and churches can do and not do in regard to say weddings?
That was a national conversation.
That’s largely become a local conversation
And as those things have gotten regional
There is a different opinion whether that’s a change or whether that’s reverting back to what we used to do
There was a time when most of those decisions were local and then as we grew they became
National and now as we shrink they seem to become regional again
And so some argue that it’s us
Changing the way we do things others argue that it’s returning to the way that we used to do things.
I Don’t know if there’s a clear consensus
It’s probably both in some ways and maybe the motivations aren’t entirely clear for why it’s happening
but I do think that the General Assembly in some ways Michael has done exactly what you suggest it has
Minimized in a national sense its governance role and perhaps
Maximized its
Translation role it’s trying to speak to the church trying to connect the church with issues of society
both nationally and globally and
That hasn’t been a welcome change in
Lots of people’s mind
But I do think part of it is related to what we’ll talk about in a few moments
It is hard right now in the in the era.
We live to run a very top-heavy
National kind of organization we had a lot of luck with that when it worked and everyone was doing it
We did it longer than most people and when others stopped doing it
We kept trying it and we have found that it’s just a cumbersome way to get things done
Yeah, and to speak directly to that for some time
I served in a group of people in our region who oversaw candidates who were going up for ordination and
Very concretely just as a practical example here
Back in the day when seminaries were full and there was significant
Competition and not I mean there was there’s just a significant amount of interest in the pastorate in that time the national
denomination had very stringent requirements that were passed all the way down to these local committees that really
your job was to follow the path that was set out and
If a candidate wasn’t able to if a person trained for ministry rather wasn’t able to follow that path
Your job was to really just close the door but today
That process though.
There are still national requirements
There are steps along the way that provide great flexibility.
Oh, you can’t go to that seminary.
Well, this is allowed Oh, you can’t try study for that thing.
Well, this is allowed
There’s just so much more flexibility and and that really is a reflection.
There are less people in the process
We recognize that we need to be flexible because some people can’t go to a full-time seminary and and there are alternate ways
Some people aren’t going to be a pastor full-time.
They’re going to be what we call a tent maker
And so right just there’s so many complexities that are now accounted for and so much regional authority in
Moving a person through to being a pastor that would have been completely unthinkable even 30 20 years ago
yeah, and And consequently, it seems to me that in the last 10 to 20 years
The General Assembly has I
Think about what makes people angry and and what makes the average
Presbyterian at least in my context unhappy with General Assembly
It has as much been their statements about things right as it has been the things they do
the things they do have in some way been pushed down the ladder and
The statements they make tend to be the things that people react to some people very positively others negatively
but it’s less their actions I think that have caught the attention of people in the last decade and
more
Often it is the stance that they take on behalf of the national church
Because in a church that’s very diverse with a lot of variety in it.
No stance is going to be big enough
To make room for everybody and some of us are always going to feel like that was great or no
That wasn’t great.
And that’s the that’s the tension that the General Assembly lives with right now
We’re gonna move on from General Assembly before we do that.
I do want to name a couple positives
I do think sometimes General Assembly as national bodies of all kinds sometimes get a lot of flack
They are very much the place where the Presbyterian youth
Triennium is governed and managed and that’s this triennial every three years youth get together.
We’ve taken our youth their clan
I think largely it’s a really well-run program and a great way that we as a denomination invest in our youth and our disciples
The General Assembly has some direct responsibility for some what may seem like
Structural boring things like the Board of Pensions,
which is the organization that that gives pastors and churches insurance and life insurance health insurance
Lots of different benefit packages.
They do a really good job of taking care of pastors though
There’s some struggles for congregations in the new era to be able to afford that the General Assembly also oversees some of the international mission
Presbyterian disaster assistance a great hour of giving they’re just these
Mission oriented sort of things that could only make sense of the national scale that the General Assembly does well
And though there are people who would say hey
We should do that different where we could do it more efficiently
I do think there are a number of things that the General Assembly and the larger national body
Organization does really well that it’s worth noting.
Yeah, absolutely And the the other strength I think of General Assembly Michael is that because it’s national it gives us an opportunity
To have a place to voice specific concerns and struggles,
you know The the reality of say Jamaica press in inner city,
New York is as you and I know
Miles apart from the experience of a Presbyterian
FPC in Spirit Lake,
Iowa And and without General Assembly we could easily function in our two environments
Really never knowing what was important and what was difficult in in one another’s context
we in Spirit Lake have no idea what it is to try and
Minister in the context of being on the border of Arizona and what it is to try and balance
Legal immigration and ministry to those who show up
destitute and scared and vulnerable
That’s not where we live on the other hand.
We know something about environmental issues and and other kinds of things in our region that
They’re not going to know in Los Angeles.
And so a place that puts us all together for better or worse
Is is good.
I think there’s lots of upsides in that
It makes us hear from one another which isn’t always comfortable,
but it is beneficial
Yeah, and you can imagine the great struggle when you get all of those people at the table is with all of that happening
It’s it’s a loud cacophony and oftentimes it’s a mess.
So the idea Of organization is you start breaking down into smaller regional units and our next step in the system
Is just that it’s really sort of collecting people in a region
So that with the idea being that there might be shared ministry and oversight and people who are in slightly more similar
Circumstances.
Yeah, we call this our synod and at the synod level you’re talking about a significant
regional body our synod is
Wisconsin,
Iowa,
Minnesota
That it
Uh,
yes
So you’re talking about
synods that
Encompass several states depending on the size of those states are you know,
not surprisingly Synods tend to be bigger out west because states are bigger out west
They’re a little more dense to the east and in the midwest
But you’re talking about a large body you’re talking about lots of churches lots of Presbyterians
And and michael there’s sort of a running joke in the
Presbyterian world
That people don’t know what synods do and there there is some truth to that synods
Generally don’t function as a governmental level.
They’re not real involved in policy setting though.
They do have some management
responsibilities over the presbyteries that are in their region
But I think what the synod perhaps does the function it seems to me that they fulfill
Is that the they are in some sense a bridge between?
the general assembly
and the presbytery congregation
As as those things work their way down from the general assembly to the presbytery
The synod exists not so much to govern but to provide resources to provide information to help with clarification
To help with management to help with administration
And that happens you know
Mostly informally I would think now the other thing that the synod does and we offload a great deal of our
Regional mission to a synod and they they handle it’s often your synod that’s going to have
working relationships with ministries that are bigger than a congregation can support so
large ministries of
International mission of local mission of homeless care
hospital systems synods often have connections with large missional agencies and they help funnel
interest and funds from congregations up through presbyteries and then to those but those things
Generally don’t reach the general assembly level.
They stay at that second tier
Yeah, if I was going to pick one word for synod,
it would be resourcing I think synods resource
congregations in lots of different ways um, and sometimes
you know that looks as simple as the
synod provides training for presbyteries on issues that matter trainings on maybe it’s your
insurance policies for churches in your presbytery maybe that looks like
Sexual ethics trainings for leaders at the presbytery and church sort of pastor levels.
Um, there there are concrete resourcing
Sort of programs there.
I think the mission thing is resourcing congregations to have a mission larger than the footprint that they’re
That they can sustain themselves.
I do think when you think of
The title that we have here, you know authority
I don’t really think that synod bears a lot of authority in the chain of presbytery and leadership
They exist more in sort of that middle ground,
which is where you know
I think some of those jokes come from clint is you know,
realistically, uh, the synod doesn’t carry a lot of organizational weight
They’re they’re a little bit more
resourcing of these differing levels and
So if you if you are looking for the organizational power structure
There’s not a whole lot of gravity in the synod though.
I I think the case has been made that they offer a lot of usefulness
Yeah, and I think you know,
we’d want to be
We want to be fair and if there’s someone listening who’s in the synod structure,
they may not appreciate this comment
but what the synod does tends to have
very little impact on the day-to-day life
Of presbyterians in a congregation.
It’s not that it doesn’t affect them
It’s that they’re not going to know that connection when the general assembly makes a decision and that makes the news
A a presbyterian is going to probably hear about that and it may affect them
What the synod does is I think largely off stage
and
I would suspect that the average presbyterian
May not know what a synod is and almost certainly doesn’t know
What their synod does yeah to put that concretely clint i’ve only been a pastor for seven years
So maybe you’ve had different experience,
but in that time in the church,
I have had numerous people
Come and talk to me about things that have been said and done at the general assembly
That they have sought me out to talk about that
I have not had a single conversation with anyone in the congregation
Ever about an action or decision made by the synod.
So I just think
The the gap between the general assembly and the synod in terms of public conscious
Public consciousness, excuse me is significant.
Yeah, absolutely
I think that leads us then clint if you’re okay to sort of that next step in the chain
You’ve got the general assembly.
Then you have the synod and the next step down is the presbyterian.
We’re starting to
Get into more finely
Focused geographical groups at this point
There is only to my knowledge one non-geographical
Presbyterian and that is the korean
Churches in the united states.
I want to make a correction michael
It turns out that uh,
our synod is much bigger than we may have
Led people to believe including the decodas
Nebraska
Some other sorry everybody west of us may feel left out.
So
We apologize for that
Sorry, everybody west of us.
Um Yeah, so synods have a large geographic footprint right and presbyterians to put that in conversation.
Our presbyterian is northwest.
Iowa Yes, and so now we have a we have multiple presbyteries in the state of iowa
So we drop down very quickly in that conversation and this
Body the presbyterian is one that
pastors and and leaders on session
Have regular contact with whether that’s meetings or its expectations
This is now one that is a very much a direct connection to the sort of governing life of a congregation
yeah, I would I would say that presbyteries really are very active in managing churches and
Resourcing churches.
So this is really where I think you kind of the rubber meets the road in regard to the presbyterian experience
If you’ve served at a presbyterian church level you have had probably some interaction
With the presbyterian if you’ve called a pastor the presbyterian has been involved with that if a church
Has let a pastor go whether that was through good or bad circumstances
The presbyterian is involved in that if a church has tried a project wanted to raise money and taken a loan
the presbyterian has approved that the the the connection between the presbyterian congregation is regular and is
Extensive there.
They are connected.
They’re hooked together in lots of ways and
Many many people at the local church level have attended presbyterian meetings.
They’ve served on presbyterian committees and task units
And so I think michael that this is really when we think about the presbyterian church when we think about the individual congregation
It is by far the presbyterian that has the most impact
At that level on ministry on mission on organization and on administration
This is not a hundred percent true
But I think it may get you in the ballpark if you grew up lutheran or methodist or even catholic
And you have some sense for what the bishop is and does
presbyterian does a lot of the stuff that a bishop does it’s just a group of people
Who are together who represent that power instead of one person?
The the presbyterian is as you’ve said involved in those pastoral
comings and goings in a way that other denominations one
Bishop is responsible for some of that movement and that’s not the case in our system
We have a much more democratized sort of order so that first presence spirit lake combined with first presbyterian church
uh in denison with first presbyterian church in su city and you know
Lakeside presbyterian church and storm lake all of these churches together are sending people on some level
So that we can have a shared checks and bounds across each other
So if a church isn’t doing well in one of those cities,
um, the the whole system and group of churches can ideally
Leverage the strengths of one another to help in that circumstance
Yeah, and it may surprise people if you don’t have a long background in presbyterianism
It may surprise people to understand that the presbyterian is also the home of local pastors
So michael and and my church membership is not at first presbyterian church.
We as Clergy belong to the presbyterian.
We we were transferred into the presbyterian
In your case michael when you were ordained in my case from
texas grace presbyterian where I served and
We get put on the roles not of the churches we serve but of the presbyteries in which we serve and so
pastors are understood very much to be
in relationship and accountable to not only the congregation they’re in but the presbyterian they serve the
larger body and this connection
is
At times frustrating
Because it means you’re always sort of dealing with a range of issues that are happening beyond your own church
but it’s also very much life-giving because it
it
precludes the possibility that you could just build walls around your own ministry and do that you you have to be in
Partnership with the larger body of faith,
which we think is important
historically and practically
yet, there is a sliding range of experiences with presbyterian and Unfortunately,
the presbyterian in some moments functions a lot like the customer service number
You know, I think there’s not many customer service agents that get people to call the number and say i’m just so happy with your product
Yeah, you guys are doing a great job
No The people that call customer service are upset because the thing’s not working and they need help and by definition
Things are messy and complicated and presbyterian gets a lot of those phone calls
Church isn’t doing well.
The pastors may be not personally doing well or maybe not leading well
And so lots of phone calls get made in i’m not going to say just crisis situations,
but that certainly happens
and so some people
very much feel like the presbyterian is sort of
a little bit of a negative thing because a lot of their experiences have happened in negative context, but
We could I mean right here the difference between our conversation about synod and presbyterian
I can name a lot of the names of churches in our presbyterian clint.
We had to do some guessing on the size of the synod
It’s just a reflection of
Oh, we engage quite a bit multiple meetings a year.
I know lots of the people in presbyterian by name
I’ve served on committees with them.
I’ve had many conversations with them a year
Sometimes once a month,
so there’s just a very much
sort of cordial collegial working
A relationship with the presbyterian that happens whenever you’re in the local congregational leadership setting
If you’re a congregant,
I think on the other side of that wall
You’ve either served on the committee or you if you know of presbyterians probably happened in a not great context generally,
yeah and and
We should mention that the presbyterian even those uncomfortable moments the presbyterian really seeks to be a resource
Right to the congregation in terms of leadership in terms of finances
We would be remiss not to point out michael that the equipment you’re watching us
Use you’re listening to us and seeing us on
equipment
That the presbytery helped us purchase and arguably we might not have had
Without their help.
So the presbytery resources congregations in many ways as they try to do ministry
and unfortunately that means stepping in when things aren’t going well and trying to help and
When you try to help in a moment of crisis
Not everyone is going to agree that you are helpful,
but it comes from
A good place.
It’s a place of connection between how we try to
Rule ourselves and and apply those guidelines and those rules and how we practice them
And for the most part the presbytery, I think
In the working life of the church is kind of that safety net.
They’re not
active our presbytery is not
Trying to tell us what to do on a regular basis
But they do want to be connected.
They do want to be a part of our ministry
and they very much want churches to move forward and make progress and
Unfortunately, that means that occasionally that relationship has some stress in it
Yeah, inevitably the presbytery is going to feel like a roadblock to churches that are at
Freeway speed and the presbytery is going to feel like a safety net for churches who aren’t doing well and first
Presbytery church has already were well past a hundred years in existence.
We’ve had those seasons in this in this very congregation.
So
What what you your relationship to presbytery right now may change
very radically in five or ten years and
It is I think clint though.
Sometimes it feels like an evil
Other times it feels like a great good and that’s just by nature of what it’s going to be
Yeah, and because presbyteries and churches the the place where they contact each other the most is probably
Involves pastoral relationships, right?
So Here’s the tension a church says hey,
we found this person.
We love them
They served some church.
We want them to be our pastor.
The presbytery says well,
they’re not presbyterian They’ve not studied presbyterianism.
They don’t know anything about our system and we don’t know anything about them
we need to put the brakes on and
Have this conversation and and so we’re not going to let you do that just yet now the church is upset
But from the presbytery it comes from a place of concern when we’ve seen these partnerships in the past
They generally haven’t gone.
Well, and you have people with vested interests on both sides and it’s always
unfortunate anytime those kind of conversations come to places of tension and conflict but
Everybody involved is generally trying to do a good thing.
They just disagree on what the good thing is
Fortunately, that doesn’t happen very often.
I think a lot of people’s
Experience with the presbytery has been positive.
I would say that our presbytery though.
We are struggling
In terms of you know finances and numbers and some of those metrics
As are many presbyteries in the country ours is certainly not alone in that
We are in a good place administratively
I think you know our current
General presbyter the leadership at that level.
I think we are strong.
I think we are trying to move good directions
It’s just it’s just a big job
Yeah, it very much is and I think it’s worth noting as we talk about authority and structure
that say that there’s a sort of a
constitutional amendment level thing that happens at general assembly that we’re going to change for instance
In our language who can or who can’t be ordained at a national level
If that gets passed at general assembly that then is sent to these presbyteries who must vote
to approve it and so there is
very much this kind of regional representation that exists inside of our national structure that if
If the people who went to general assembly voted on a thing
That doesn’t just mean it’s suddenly law that now needs to come under review of these presbyteries
Where they get a say in it as well.
Yeah, and I I would say that
It has been my experience michael that when presbytery authority
intervenes in congregations
it’s either
There’s a moment where things are not going well or a church finds itself kind of out on the cutting edge of something
and the presbytery is a little concern like wanting to build too big of building or
wanting to
Revolutionize some program and the presbytery says,
you know, okay, we need to we need to talk this through
we all need to understand it let’s not rush ahead and
You know, that’s probably rare the more common place of conflict probably has to do with
pastoral leadership and when things either are or aren’t going and and some of that is the nature of the
The conversation you had a moment ago
when
The presbytery gets a call
Our pastor is not doing well and it’s the first they’ve heard of it and the people calling them expect immediate
intervention
It’s just going to be tense.
It just doesn’t work
Well, so the presbytery does its best when it stays in relationships with churches and it tries to do that
tries to do that regularly
And I think that is sort of this regional northwest.
Iowa kind of thing
You may be surprised at the next step in the chain
We don’t go to like pastor
Instead we go to congregation and if you haven’t been a presbytery in your entire life,
you might be surprised to know
that all of the members of
A church so now we’re at the level of like first presbytery in church in spirit lake our congregation
When you are a member at first presbytery in church,
you now have roles and responsibilities in the governance of this congregation
That might surprise you.
Yeah, so we probably would want to make sure when we say
Congregation we actually mean a group within our congregation called the session
But the the guidance of the congregation falls to the local level.
That’s not the job of the presbytery
The presbytery doesn’t tell us what programs to do the presbytery doesn’t tell us what sunday school curriculum to use
The presbytery doesn’t tell us whether to have youth group or recharge
all of that stuff is managed within the congregation and and as it is
We have tremendous autonomy.
We have tremendous freedom to be able to navigate those challenges
Uh in the way that we think is best for us
Now there are some points of contact.
We have guidance from our book of order our general assembly
And our presbytery about who we can ordain as officers
Who should and shouldn’t be ordained?
We have some guidance about things like baptism
We have some guidance about things like weddings though much of that has
fallen on our own plates in the last couple of decades, but
in regard to How we want to structure our budget how much?
Congregations want to pay their staff people their pastors and other staff
that all falls within the congregation’s decision making and the presbytery has
I I would argue nothing
Let’s let’s say little to nothing to say about it.
It is simply the responsibility of the church
To live out that part of its ministry
And the only places those things overlap if the church wants to take a loan
The presbytery is going to need to approve it
If the church wants to hire or fire a pastor the presbytery is going to be involved in it
but other than that
The large the bulk of what’s going to happen in a church is governed at the level of the church
Right, and I do think that this maybe is a pretty nuanced line.
So maybe difficult to ascertain all the differences here
The congregation and the session are both at the congregational level they both exist in-house if you let me use that language
Maybe the best way to see that lived out in practice actually looks like our annual meeting in january
Because what you have happening there is the session,
which is the the elders elected from the congregation
They go and they work on a budget for the year that they have the power to approve
The the elders of the church can say this is the budget for the year and this is what we’re going to pay our
Building manager and this is what we’re going to pay for
Long care this year and all of that kind of stuff is handled by that group of people elected
But in that meeting in january if you’ve been able to join us what ends up happening is
The congregation votes on the salaries for the pastors
That’s not a responsibility that has been granted to these people elected on session
And so it’s a finite distribution of power between the people who are members here
And the people that they have elected to rule in much of the other leadership of the congregation
It’s impossible to know the exact proportion,
but it’s probably fair to say like three percent of the leadership is given to the congregational members
There’s not many things that the congregation members would vote on a majority of that rest with the session
But there is a slight difference between the two.
Yeah, so the limitations at the session level are
the ability to hire and fire pastors
Um and the ability to pay pastors so I can’t put a bunch of people
I I can’t try to engineer my people on the session who then say hey clint
We’re going to give you a big giant raise without the congregation knowing about it
Also, someone else can’t put a bunch of people who don’t like clint on the session and say we’re getting clint fired
Because those things have to have congregational approval
The other thing that the session can’t do that.
They do have tremendous freedom to manage the budget and the resources of the church
They cannot put a congregation in debt.
So if we ever take a loan out for something
The congregation has to approve that so that the session can’t do that autonomously and and it balances
The things that the session is able to do they may not do things that encumber
The congregation both from a leadership perspective and from a financial perspective other than that
The session is really free to govern the church and not only are they free they’re required
They’re responsible for governing the church for setting direction for dealing with
everything from personnel issues to building issues to
Curriculum christian education issues to mission issues and that all happens at
The session level hopefully with lots of communication
And input from the congregation but without congregational authority.
So
if you’ve ever been
Non-denominational church baptist church this works very differently
Something comes up the congregation votes.
It’s 60 to 40 60 wins.
It’s 70 30 70 wins and that may be anything from let’s start a preschool to let’s fire the pastor
There are balances.
There are doorways and checks in the Presbyterian system that don’t allow that kind of
Hey, we got the the right people at the right meeting
So every we change the name of the church that that’s not going to happen.
It doesn’t work that way
Yeah, it depending upon who you are.
It’s either checks and balances or hoops
And they’re both flip sides of the same exact coin.
Yeah, exactly
Sometimes it feels like we need to do this simple thing and there’s four complicated steps to do it
And that can be a fair critique.
Sometimes
Congregational growth and change is encumbered by all of these system structures differences of responsibility
But you have to see it for what it was intended and it was intended to be checks and balances on any one person
exercising their own sinfulness over others and that is just an open-eyed approach to
Giving authority to people and that’s part of a reflection of who we are and maybe it’s helpful to understand that we we have some
As we have this conversation you could make a case that session would come above congregation
In the hierarchy of government,
but in the connection the presbytery is really responsible to
and with the congregation
Who is run by the session?
And so you could even perhaps put these on the same lines
we weren’t sure the best way to present them to you because they
They’re sort of meshed.
It’s it’s impossible to distinguish
Congregation from session because session is part of
Congregation.
I think what we wanted you to see is the the one
glaring omission from this structure
is pastor
in the presbyterian system
pastors actually don’t act as
governmental figures Um,
michael and I though we enjoy tremendous
Freedom here and and a great deal of support and encouragement
If you wanted to boil it down,
we have very little authority to make things happen the way that we want
other than relational authority
We can’t make dictates about this is what we’re going to do.
That’s not our system and pastors that try it
Are not only not being very presbyterian.
They’re generally setting themselves up for some unhappiness
But you will notice that nowhere on this list is pastor part of how we govern now
We work with the session.
Obviously we work with the congregation
We’ll also work with the presbytery and maybe more occasionally the senate and even the general assembly
But as a rule,
we’re not part of the we’re not part of this the hierarchy
Yeah, I don’t want to be too meta here clint but in some ways this is actually the perfect example
Pastors aren’t on the board pastors are here at the table trying to teach explain lead
Encourage.
I mean we’re doing what pastors do in the governmental system
We try to know and be competent at how we govern
We try to be a referee in the best sense at the table here that all the voices at first pres are are heard that the leadership
Opportunities here are surveyed that when session meets their resource with what they need to lead
Well that they can trust that the day-to-day operations of the church are being handled with utmost character
The pastoral care is delivered in such a way that they can
Seek to lead the congregation and not be active in the nitty-gritty of the day’s
Life of a congregation.
I think really
Pastors seek to at their best be humble enough to know that it’s not their job
And also to fill in the gaps where they have gifts so that a church can thrive.
Yeah, and I I guess I would
I guess I would say that obviously if there’s some issue that involves the church or the church and the presbytery
We are likely to be in the thick of it.
We are certainly not going to be on the outside of that conversation
we’re going to be in the middle of it trying to work it out and and
Interpret back and forth and we will definitely be a part of that process.
But what we
lack
structurally
Is the kind of ability to make dictates this is how we’re going to worship.
We have a worship committee
And we we enjoy a great deal of trust from them and a working relationship and and yes
We’re going to be able to make changes and do things
This congregation in particular gives us a tremendous amount of freedom to navigate those because there’s a lot of
of trust at work in this place
but we
You don’t have to worry that you show up and and michael and I have just
renamed the church or
Changed the budget or appointed different elders because we we didn’t think the ones we had were
Voting for the things we wanted.
We we don’t have that
Authority in this kind of system and I think you know clearly i’m not unbiased
But I that’s to the best when pastors get involved
in the minutia of governing
it it gets messy and it
it a
removes
The burden of doing what the church should be doing from the church
It’s the church’s job to run itself not the pastors
Be it it inserts the pastor in lots of places
They probably don’t need to be and ultimately may not be helpful and see it just it creates lots of opportunities for unhappiness and messiness
Yeah, I think my only other reflection on the pastoral relationship is the reality
That the the presbyterian system
Was made for churches to last hundreds of years
The idea is that the church is going to outlive the pastor and that’s a good thing
so the the church this the core
Of the church should be strong and cultivated and it should extend far beyond a person
And that is a great gift as someone who actually came out of a christian tradition
That was far more emphasized on the pastoral’s leadership when the pastor left the church
It sometimes meant the end of the church.
There was just no
Inherent leadership expectation and structure inside the church
So on one hand it’s great for a church that it has this structure that must continue on
Far beyond one particular leader and that’s good for the pastor to know that this is ultimately
Jesus’s church that this is this the people have responsibility
And then on the flip side,
you know, it’s also good for pastors who are sometimes tempted
To take more power than is there do to have checks and balances that it’s good for pastors to know
That there’s a limit that they must not exceed and there are consequences if they do and especially if one is tempted by that
Our structure has ways of keeping that in check.
Yeah, and one final word just
Because I I think some of you here at fpc will
Be wondering what about deacons,
you know that we have deacons deacons exist to support ministry within a congregation
They’re not part of governance.
In other words, we don’t ask our deacons to make decisions about the church about the finances
Any of that we ask them to help us do the work of the church.
So they’re visiting people they’re caring for the sick
They’re helping us with food ministries.
They’re they’re involved in local resource
Resourcing local ministries and local needs as well
But they they do a phenomenal job and a very important one
But they’re not a part of the hierarchy of our government.
They don’t make decisions
About the life of the church they try to enact the gospel
From within and help us do the same in that direction.
And so very important,
but not part of our government
Yeah, I would only add to that clint that there’s really not a group i’m aware of in the church that has done more
brainstorming On how can we help these people they they come regularly?
To you to eye to us
Saying hey, we think this is a place where we can reach out and help some people that we would have never seen
I think the deacons offers the congregation sort of a a sheltered place a group of people who have been tasked with
Keep your eyes on the loss the least the hurting
How can we help them and they do that job?
With an incredible amount of effectiveness,
right?
Which which absolutely is in keeping with our governance
That’s one of the ways we try to enact ministry
But not a part of our structure there the deacons aren’t going to have a vote on whether we should
you know Build something or or change the budget they’re
They’re doing other stuff and they’re doing it really well and we’re grateful for them
But that’s why they’re not listed on our chart here.
Okay, so don’t look at your phone or device yet
We just crossed an hour and you’re still with us.
That’s an incredible feat.
Thank you for sticking with it
Maybe you’re not but hey,
listen, we realize that on some level.
This is nuts and bolts,
right on another level though
Oh, yes, presbyterians have given a lot of thought to this structure and it has served us well enough in a future conversation
We will be able to look under the hood a little bit and we’ll we’ll be able to identify some ways together
In which that system has sometimes worked against us as we’ve sought to adapt to our context,
but suffice it Uh for today I think it’s worth saying
That really as an overall overarching theme as as people of faith
presbyterians seek to give no single person too much power
And seek to still be responsive to the leadership of jesus christ over the idea of mob rule
And to whatever extent we’ve been successful we’ll leave it to
Someone else to judge but that has very much been this thing that has been under the surface
Animating us and that’s how we get to where we are today.
Yeah, and very few people are most excited about church governance
But at at our best what we do is what we believe there is a connection
It’s an extension of our belief in how god works in the church and what the church is to do
with how we practice things how we
Vote how we organize how we do christian education how we worship and so
When that connection is is well maintained
It gives us the best opportunity to to be faithful in all avenues and aspects of the church’s life
We don’t always get it right.
We rarely get it.
All right, but when we do it’s really good
Friends, thanks for joining us today.
It was a pleasure to be able to share this time with you
We look forward to seeing you next wednesday when we release our next conversation nine o’clock central standard time
But until then i’ll be blessed.
We look forward to seeing you again soon.
Thanks