Prosperity Gospel

Well, if you would let’s give a round of applause.
Thanks to those who made our food tonight
And there’s a lot of red lines here claim when you were recording were there tons of red lines
That’s okay, this is horrible.
It won’t go online see how that works all right
So
We’re gonna just start tonight.
We should start tonight with prayer.
Maybe we should yeah,
let’s pray.
Let’s pray.
We’re gonna need that
Thank you God for this night for bringing us here for this time that we spend in fellowship around table to remember your faithfulness and provision
to celebrate the goodness of
Your love and your promise that you never leave us or forsake us
That we might learn that we might be challenged that we might see good news even in difficult things
We pray in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Amen
All right.
Well, I’m just this this is a huge
Tabiot from the start.
This is unlike anything we’ve done this year.
So just know that going into this
And there are gonna be times tonight when you’re confused.
There’ll be moments when you might be angry
There are going to be times when you think I have no clue what he is saying and in those moments
Think that this is sort of like it’s sort of like having a cultural exchange student coming and talking,
right?
The reason you don’t get it is because it’s not our vocabulary.
It’s not our world
But this is something that I have had my past and I’ll be honest with you
There’s way more here than we’re gonna have time to talk about in our time together and I’ve waffled over how we’re gonna do this
So I’m gonna try to just go as slowly as I can through this as we go
Please stop me interrupt me put questions in the air
I guarantee you whatever you ask is gonna be more interesting than what I have prepared for you
So now that we’ve set your expectations at the adequate level
Let’s go I So one of the things I was waffling on is should we define some terms and some of this stuff is I generally wouldn’t start
With in fact lots of this these I’m never supposed to use but I’m going to because of the fact
That I think it’s important that we sort of have a basis as we start our conversation
So tonight we’re talking about prosperity gospel.
We’re talking about this strain of the faith and and it’s mostly
Historically been confined to the United States though.
That’s changed in recent years and
we’re gonna be talking a little bit about
the nuances of this and
Once we get down here,
I’ll sort of lay out for you where we’re going in that
So first of all,
let’s define some terms
Tonight you need to know what a holiness Pentecostal is
And both of those are important.
So let’s start with Pentecostal
Pentecostalism is a movement of Christianity that began
the Azusa Street revival in Los Angeles in 1906 and that that movement of Christianity believes in what is called the
well, it’s called either the believer’s baptism or baptism of the Holy Spirit and
Pentecostals believe that that is accompanied by Speaking in tongues.
You might have heard it called glossolalia as well as the belief in healing on the
More on the ground term is holy rollers
Holiness Pentecostals They are a subset of Pentecostalism though all Pentecostal shares some
Connection to the holiness tradition,
but holiness Pentecostals are Pentecostals who name and claim for themselves a connection to
Holiness movement which we’re going to talk about more so you don’t get hung up on that but the holiness movement within
This circle means that these Pentecostals not only believe in the things that Pentecostals believe but they believe very strongly
That as believers were called to be transformed in the way that we live our life in very concrete ways
so things like Drinking things like dancing things like cards all of this would be outlawed for a holiness Pentecostal because it is outside the bounds of
character and morality as a Christian so very very stringent very very
Focused on rules and laws and how that connects to their Pentecost Pentecostalism
This is important and we’ll come up as we go together tonight
So teary ology is the theological speak for what we believe about how Jesus’s life death resurrection and ascension
Effect salvation in our lives.
So so teary ology is
Salvation question mark essentially and and the reason this needs to be on the board will make sense in a little bit
Same with this idea of sanctification,
which is if you’ve been a lifelong Presbyterian
Maybe now the word that you’ve heard a whole lot because that connects to the whole
Arominian debate that you remember from last week and in this instance
Sanctification is talking about the spirits work in us after salvation and it is our continuing conversion as one
Reformed theologian calls it it’s the idea that the Holy Spirit works in you after you receive the gift of salvation and it changes you
Into the image of Christ therefore a believer behaves differently than non-believer.
That’s going to also be important.
You’ll see why as we come
Then I want to make a distinction between these two things the title of this talk is prosperity gospel
But we’re almost not going to talk about that at all tonight.
I’m going to explain why the first is prosperity
Gosh, well, the first is we are going to be talking about word of faith
for two reasons one
That is what intersects with my story.
So it will be more interesting for you and to
This where the faith is the foundation for what you will know is prosperity gospel
And let me now tell you why this tonight is probably going to be horribly boring is because the best chance
That you will know anything about what we’re talking tonight
Theologically is here in some of this what I would call pop theology and we’ll talk about that at the end
but the idea of prosperity gospel speakers who you might know of like a Joel Osteen or like a
Joseph Prince these people are to
Theology or sorry to the word of faith movement like your dr.
Oz is to medicine,
right?
I mean very very
Practical pop sort of theology where the faith is the movement that stands behind
Prosperity gospel and provides the theological framework and and really the organizational driver that makes prosperity gospel even something worth talking about
So if your interest has been peaked at all,
here we go So to talk about this we have to start in the 19th century and
What what you need to be able to do as we sort of sit you are
Situate ourselves in this idea of the holiness strain is you have to lift yourself out of the reformed
Conversation that we’re used to and you have to drop yourself into a Methodist conversation
Because Pentecostalism is directly connected to Methodism
So Methodism it lives on this a boundary line between
Arominianism and Calvinism.
So you remember that whole conversation about the elect and the and free will and all of these things are happening.
Well Wesley was was really tricky actually
He sat on the boundary of those two things in a way that other theologians didn’t he believed in free will and so he’s charged as being Arominian by Calvinists,
but yet he was so close to being a Calvinist that he could still kind of have reasonable conversations with them
So Wesley was an interesting guy and out of Wesley’s theology
Came this thing called the holiness movement because you may or may not know this but Wesley had within him
Within his theological work this thing that was called the second work of grace
Has anyone heard this anyone with me here?
So the first work of grace is the work of grace that happens in you when you are saved
When you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior,
which would be the word of a of a West land
In that moment, then you’re given your first work of grace,
but but you might remember one of Wesley’s most famous
Quotes one of the things that he said in a sermon.
I believe is actually where it was written down
Was it a letter?
No, he wrote it that
There was a moment in his life where his heart was strangely warmed not familiar to anyone
No, okay, so Wesley felt his heart being strangely warm.
That was his experience
He was he was in a difficult season and he felt his heart warmed by what he attributed to be God’s work in it
He already believed himself to be saved.
So when he had that experience,
he was asking the question
What is this and he believed that was the spirit’s work in him?
Driving him to holiness and he attributed that to a second work of grace.
What’s the first work of grace?
Salvation that gives soteriology.
What’s the second work of grace?
Sanctification that’s where where God came and did something in his heart that was new and
That moved him forward in his life of faith
Y’all with me?
Great,
okay,
so
Wesley has this within his theology and it goes some really interesting places as the years go on
So the next person that we talked about is Edward Irving.
So Edward Irving was lived just after Wesley
He was from 1792 to 1834
he was a pastor in the Church of Scotland actually and
Edward was very interested in mystical theology
And if you know anything about the ancient church,
you know that depending upon who you read
there are different groups of theologians and pastors who who had lots of theology surrounding mysticism
Prophecies visions these sorts of things and so he was drawn to that.
He was also drawn to some what was in his time
contemporary philosophy if you’ve ever read Coleridge saying or Coleridge
He dabbles in the idea of naturalism and he’s very mystical within that and Edward was drawn to that
So I tell you all of this because Edward got in trouble
He had his own second work of grace except his drew him to some of the extremes of mysticism and he started
Having some visions and prophecies and he believed that the end of the world was coming
This happens in every generation of the church
if you didn’t know that that the end of the world was coming and
His theology became of more and more and more liberal in the sense that it departed from the Orthodox
Faith the Church of Scotland
Essentially banned him.
They they took away his ordination and they said he could no longer be part of the church and
He became the founder of
essentially the beginning movement of another
Breakout church from the Church of Scotland.
The reason why you need to know that is that Edward Irving’s theology
Was taken up by a small-town preacher in Topeka,
Kansas.
It’s amazing how word spreads
And in Topeka,
Kansas, there was a tiny tiny holding us church led by a pastor by the name of Charles Parham and this is
Charles died in
1929 but the bulk of this formative work was done
When he was actually a pretty young individual it was done around the turn of the century
So around 1900 and he is reading Edward Irvin.
He’s reading some of those these mystical things
he’s talking about the apocalypse and the end of times and
He’s picking up in Edward Irvin some of this second work of grace language that Edward attached to
Some of these prophetic mystical things and Charles Parham had this
Theological light bulb moment when he put together
Well, what if the moment that you have your second work of grace?
We’re going back to Wesley,
right?
My heart was strangely warmed.
What if in that second work of grace moment?
You were hit by the Holy Spirit and thus had spiritual gifts
What if those two things were supposed to be combined?
with that
Theological light bulb moment he begins teaching.
In fact, he started the school and
Within that school came someone who would become extremely influential in the Pentecostal movement whose name was William Seymour
Anyone know William Seymour?
Yeah, I so I so far.
I’m keeping my promise tonight.
All right, so
William Seymour is the son of a freed slave and
He has a horrendous run with sickness.
He almost dies.
He loses an eye
But he believes miraculously.
He is healed and saved by God.
He Comes to know a Parham his theology.
He actually goes to his church for a little while and then he goes to his school and
He was apparently a quick learner because she only studied for six weeks and then he left
He was called to a church in Los Angeles on Azusa Street
He went there in his first sermon.
He preached Parham theology that the second work of grace,
but this is a holiness church
So so this feels like foreign language to you
but to them this is this is their native tongue and he goes and he preaches that the
Confirmation of the second work of grace is the work of the Holy Spirit in your life
And the next day he got back to church and the doors were padlocked
Because they didn’t like that sermon
He did some politics.
He got back into the pulpit and then it happened on April 9th
1906 the revival on Azusa Street and this is the
This was one of those few church dates that you can know that changed everything
Certainly for Pentecostals, but in many ways for the 20th century the church
This is an unbelievably important date because on this day
William Seymour was preaching
and The story is told very much in the language of Acts 2
There was a great fire the spirit hit the room and suddenly
Nobody was who they generally are.
They were speaking in tongues people were being healed
Proper men and women were rolling on the floors
There’s some very interesting stories that come out of Azusa Street
Well that revival actually goes on for years
but that first night kicks off what is now known as the modern Pentecostal movement and
What’s fascinating is just a quick tidbit just some so you can put something in your pocket
The earliest Pentecostals believe that speaking in tongues meant speaking in another real language
So that the early Pentecostal movement was was
Unbelievably committed to missions work and you can go and read the literature
Someone would go to Azusa where they would be baptized in the Holy Spirit their second work of grace and in that moment
They would be able to speak ex language
There’s one very prominent example of someone who was baptized in the spirit and spoke Chinese
They
Immediately fundraise the money put them on a train
sorry put them on a boat and sent them to China where they could be a missionary and
They got to China and realized they were speaking some language,
but it was not Chinese
So there you go,
okay, we got we got keep
Communal oh, yeah
Right
Race
Right.
So you remember that I told you that William Seymour was the son of a freed slave.
He was an African-American and
what is as someone who grew up Pentecostal I
We’re not gonna have time to talk about that as someone who grew up Pentecostal
I’ve always been amazed at the liberal mainline denominations and their pride in their racial
Equality and representation because Pentecostalism from day one was completely racially and gender
Integrated women were preaching women were speaking in tongues at the at the same level as men
And it didn’t matter what color of your skin or what language you spoke you were
Welcome to speak in the community because by the way,
everybody else was rolling on the floor, too
Right, that’s 1906
Correct.
Yep. All right.
Now we gotta keep moving
so
Pentecostalism grows like wildfire this movement becomes extremely effective at
evangelizing and
there’s tons of converts there’s tons of people being sent as missionaries and also tons of people being trained as pastors because
Pentecostal churches start springing up and the problem with having a church is you have to have people who are capable of leading it and the
Problem of needing capable leaders are you need some format some way to train them Pentecostals have this weird
dynamic relationship with
Preparing pastors because on one hand they had this desperate need for pastors on the other hand they desperately
mistrusted academics and theologians
So, what do you do whether you’ve turned to they didn’t have any theologians of their own
So they needed to find some source of text to help them train their future pastors and guess where they turned
evangelical reformed theologians
Huh?
Interesting. So suddenly
Pentecostals whose real innovation here is in this idea the second work of grace being combined with the power of Holy Spirit and real manifold ways
They start reading reformed theologians who give them a real concrete language for how you are saved
This is going to get really interesting really quickly because these two things are not what you would necessarily think natural bedfellows
But they become intimately connected into the Pentecostal movement the idea of a reformed theology of God and a highly
Practical on the ground theology of the Holy Spirit at work,
which is very intriguing
So moving on we run into an individual by the name of E.
W.
Kenyon.
It depends on who you are
Mr.
Kenyon is either a hero or he is a devil and there’s no in between
So I’m gonna just present him as both
He’s either a hero because he’s an evangelical
Theologian who was interested in theology and he paired that with this idea of
The Pentecostal experience and so he gave them a connection point between the two there.
He’s a hero
the demon is that mr.
Kenyon was interested in lots of different religious traditions and
Including scientific or not not Scientology.
What’s um?
Hmm
Christian
Science, thank you.
It is very interesting Christian science
He’s also interested in other what what the Christian theologians would call cult groups.
E.
W. Kenyon writes profusely
He leaves behind all of this material.
It goes a blank in history and nobody knows about it and
His life ends now we keep marching forward and we come to
Kenneth Hagen Kenneth Hagen is an assemblies of God pastor assemblies of God is a Pentecostal
denomination he
Is a pastor in a local congregation for a very long time and then in
1949 he starts preaching as an itinerant evangelist something like an oral Roberts or like a Billy Graham
He starts doing this itinerant thing.
The thing is that mr.
Hagen isn’t a very good preacher
He just doesn’t really engage his congregation.
So he doesn’t make it really well in that in that world
but what mr.
Hagen does is he stumbles upon E.
W.
Kenyon and he likes his theology in fact
He’s gripped by it.
And so he starts publishing
E.
W. Kenyon’s books under his own name
And I mean entire books entire books are in his name and
he stopped preaching and started teaching and
Suddenly like wildfire the war the faith movement began Kenneth Hagen
Read E.
W. Kenyon’s theology this this this strange mystical
Evangelical theology he combined it with a Pentecostal
Belief in the second work of grace he combined that with this reformed theology of God and salvation and suddenly
Shabam war the faith moment happens.
You still don’t know what war the faith is.
We’re about to get there
So what Kenneth Hagen did was he started a school.
It’s called Rhema Bible Training Center today
You could go to Rhema in broken-arrow,
Oklahoma.
In fact, that is where
Yours truly wanted to go to school longer story.
Anyways
To date well, no, it’s more than this at this point at one point when I had done the research it had
16,000 graduates and those are graduates who are pastors missionaries church leaders all around the world and Kenneth Hagen
Became this driving force behind this new theological way of combining
Pentecostalism the assumptions of Pentecostalism with what was a true theological
Innovation and so this is what we’re going to talk about what that innovation is
Let’s get rid of this this probably isn’t helpful anymore
So the first
Marker of war the faith is
Knowing who you are in Christ
Knowing who you are in Christ.
So this idea of so theological the idea of salvation
This is where we tie into the reformed roots because as our good reformed people in this room know Who saved us?
Jesus when did he save us?
Yes in the moment of dying on the cross
Salvation was affected for us.
That was a temporal event that made a
permanent or a Eternal change in those who follow Christ.
Yes, you’re still with me
Okay, so who Christ is?
We are too
Because we’re adopted brothers and sisters of Christ,
right?
You remember that scriptural language
So if Christ died on the cross therefore saving us in a temporal moment for eternity you today
Participate in the life of Christ you still buy it
Yes, good.
So then what Christ was you too can be
Is that fair?
If you are in Christ and Christ life and death affected change then you to participate in that change
This is the idea
You’ll have to agree with me,
but you have to nod because it does follow right?
All right.
This says here’s trying to trick me this kid.
He’s trying to trick me
So what that means is who we have to ask the question who is Christ and
No surprise to anyone in this room the war the faith
Movement finds a very different Christ than the one that you would expect
Do I have it with me?
Yes, I do
It kind of steals the fun from later,
but I’ll read it because this is interesting.
So Kenneth Hagen gave way to a later group of people who carried this movement forward than one of his heirs theologically wrote this
Remember who Christ is you are too on the same page
He writes get rid of the religious idea that Jesus lived in poverty when he was on earth
The only time he was poor was when he went to the cross and gave up everything he had for our sakes until then
He was a very wealthy man.
He’s had so much money flowing through his ministry ministry
He needed a treasurer poor people don’t need treasurers
Hmm
You thought about it for a second don’t tell me you didn’t poor people don’t need treasures poor people don’t need a CFO
Hmm
So they reimagine who Christ was
Which means a complete rereading of the Gospels which may sound strange to you
But that’s not strange to a Pentecostal because what happened in 1906 in 1906 the church
experienced acts to again
the story of the spirit arriving and people being changed in shape that was experienced in real life and
Every Pentecostal since then turned back to the Gospels turned back to the writings of Paul and said we’re having this experience
people prophesying people who need to interpret people who are
Committing sin and need to be put out from the community.
We are experiencing this in real life
so for a Pentecostal the idea of returning to the text and seeing Jesus through a new light is not only a
Part for their course that for them is inspiring and challenging
Okay, so first of all,
we’re the faith You need to know who you are in Christ because who Christ is you are to the second is this positive confession
We’re the faith theologians rest heavily on this idea of Jesus finishing the work on the cross
There is no Christian in the universe and I’m gonna make an extreme statement
There’s no Christian out there who has a higher view of Jesus Christ and his work for you then we’re the faith
Theologians were the faith Christians because they believe what Jesus has done.
He is done and it is not for you to question
He died.
He gave you salvation deal with it.
You don’t like it find a different guy
He did this for you and there’s nothing that you can do about it.
And so here’s the thing when
Jesus came and died on the cross.
He not only saved us from our sins
He fulfilled God’s covenant for us covenant covenant language.
What does that make us think?
Old Testament God’s covenant to the people of Israel makes us think Romans Paul talking about the covenant
Okay, so now we’re starting to think covenant
well you might remember that
Historically the people of Israel never kept their side of the covenant because they were bad at it
Right and you might say that was the point that the people of Israel couldn’t keep the covenant
But who always did keep the covenant?
God and what did God say he would do if the covenant was kept?
See if you’re a world of faith person,
you don’t even have to ask
Deuteronomy 28 if you’ve got your Bible,
let’s turn there for kicks and giggles
Deuteronomy 28
There we go if you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands
I give you today.
Have we carefully followed God’s commands?
No, but who did?
Who died on the cross?
Who are you part of?
Therefore who has kept the covenant?
You yes, yes, I got you there stay there
Don’t try to sneak out of it.
We’re there together all the way to the cross
Blessings will come on you in the company you if you obey the Lord your God all how many all
These blessings now it’s time to start reading you’ll be blessed in the city
You’ll be blessed in the country the fruit of your womb will be blessed the crops of your land and the young of your livestock
The calves of your herds the lands of your flocks your basket and your kneading trough will be blessed
You’ll be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out.
This is emblazoned literally in their homes
You know how you put sticky notes maybe on your mirror with like a nice little scripture this scripture is everywhere
Because God has kept the covenant and if God has kept the covenant who is to keep you from being blessed
Okay, so
Positive confession then is not saying something that is not true hoping it comes true
It is saying something that you believe is true and in faith are anticipating
So when I am sick and say I am healthy
I’m not denying a reality that is true for myself.
I am claiming and affirming a reality which is true in whom?
Jesus because by his stripes you are
Yes, by his act on the cross it therefore affects change in you and therefore by claiming
What is not physically true to be true you are participating in an act of faithfully proclaiming the good news
Yes, we’re still here
Okay
The final piece of this we have knowing who you are in Christ positive confession and then finally prosperity divine health and material
divine health and material wealth
So Jesus was rich therefore it makes sense that we in Christ are called to be rich
second
Jesus Christ in his stripes and in his dying for us effects change in our bodies and therefore heals us and
Jesus died so that we might participate and keep the covenantal promise
With God and therefore receive those blessings and this is where it gets really tricky friends because you say that just sounds wrong
I can’t put my finger on it,
but that sounds wrong and the problem is that they will end up saying the exact same thing
Pastor Clint sent me a really interesting
piece that John Calvin wrote for the Beatitudes which applies to prosperity gospel in some interesting ways, which
we don’t have time to talk about but
essentially what Calvin wants to say is
When asked can Christians be rich Calvin says well of course Christians be can be rich
The thing is Christians need to know that their riches came not from their own work
But as a blessing from God and at the moment their blessings were removed from them
They are still children of God and if they’re called to be grateful with both want and need right that sounds good
We’re all that feels better little Calvin
Here’s the problem prosperity gospel will say the exact same thing the exact same thing.
Why are you empowered to have riches?
To bring glory to God
To affect change to give you are blessed so that you might give you receive so that you may pass it on
So it’s easy from the outside to say wow,
that’s weird It’s very difficult when you’re on the inside
Because when you’re on the inside the reason why you are called to possess wealth is not for the wealth itself
But for what you can do with the wealth which by the way is the exact same thing that a good
Calvinist theologian would say
so
Let me just share with you.
How does this kid know so much about this?
I’m gonna try to combine these two if I can on the first is
One of the struggles that scholars have with
The this theology is the fact that
Quite frankly it works
So sociologists love were the faith
Can anyone intuit why?
Why a sociologist would love were the faith
Yes Yes, yes, it is very it is very simple and by that I mean not in it mysterious yes
but
Well that okay that that’s not fair.
So the reason sociologists loves were the faith is
because of Who it appeals to can you tell me that who does were the faith appeal to?
You might think that
Wealthy people believe that they have the power to get rich by and large
That there are wealthy people who who struggled to be grateful who strive to be grateful
But most wealthy people don’t aren’t looking for a mechanism to find wealth.
They’re trying to maintain it
The people who are drawn to were the faith theology or the poor
They’re the people who do not have wealth and are seeking some form of stability in their life so sociologists
Use a term called
socioeconomic lift
And they’ve been able to track statistically people who begin
In Christianity in the world of faith movement who within one or two generations
Move up entire sections of the socioeconomic ladder
Why
Well, if you are into were the faith if you are a native to that theology
They throw around terms like this all the time don’t have a poverty mentality
What would a poverty mentality be?
It would be a mind that isn’t Christ mind, right?
A mind of doubt a mind that doesn’t trust that what Christ did for you is enough
So you
Thinking like I’m going to save all I literally heard this in a sermon once I’m not making this up
Do I make up stuff?
Well, I didn’t I’m not making this up
I heard in a sermon the preacher go at great length to say that as Christians you are called not to keep the ketchup packets
Do not keep the ketchup packets.
You do not need those ketchup packets
Do you know why because God has blessed you to have the wealth to pay for ketchup
Do not have a poverty mentality another word that’s thrown around is
Stinking thinking that is stinking thinking
And by the way,
it’s hard because when you tell people you don’t need to be poor
God’s will for you is not to be debased
Sometimes people will believe you
It’s hard for mainline theologian because there are so much theological heresy written between these lines
But yet there are very few mainline churches who are able to have that kind of direct impact on people
So that’s a struggle.
Another thing is
There’s a long historic where the faith struggle with sickness and poverty
What do you do when you’re sick and when you’re poor?
because either you’re on your way to being healthy and rich or
We’ve got a problem and
Who has the problem would you ask would you guess?
You have the problem
Yes,
because if but you have the faith of a mustard seed one can move
If one cannot even move your kitchen chair,
what kind of faith do you have?
This theology leaves a long trail of deeply broken individuals
When cancer takes your loved one
When your child has a serious and non repairable illness and you refuse treatment as a sign of faith
Now these are things you’ve heard in the news
When you
believe
That what Christ has done for you
Is something that you can buy faith claim and it does not happen
it ruins people and
This is a significant struggle for the movement because the problem is you have the people whose anecdotal stories are
Supernatural and
Miraculous, right people who see incredible things happen to them
And of course, those are the stories that are told you have on the other side
the stories of those who are deeply broken and who are blamed for the reality of their suffering an
interesting subnote of this is
Those who believe in this kind of theology where the faith theology have absolutely zero problem with what theologians call
Theodicy and theodicy is just a theology of what do we as Christians do with sin sickness evil in the world if we believe in
A good God and if it how can we have a good and loving God and all these horrible things in the world?
That’s the theological question at play there where the faith has absolutely no problem with that
They have no problem with sin sickness evil in the world because that’s not God’s fault
Right,
I mean they can both say God is good and there is evil because who is responsible
You are
Because you participate in that by your lack of faith and they would also say Satan you’re not wrong
But it ultimately comes back to you
So now we’re gonna get to yes just enough time.
We’re gonna get to prosper the gospel
so
This were the faith is the theological framework
It is the thing coursing underneath what you would know to be maybe a Joel Osteen
Maybe you’ve heard of the Joseph Prince.
Maybe you’ve been scrolling through your TV and you saw mr.
Paul Crouch on TBN
These individuals are borrowing piecemeal things from this movement and
Essentially the reason why I didn’t want to linger on prosperity gospel is because prosperity gospel is in my wheel of view
I just unbelievably weak groundless theology where the faith I think is interesting because they’re trying to connect things theologically
They’re trying to have scriptural ideas prosperity gospel when you boil it down is
God’s a nice jolly person and he wants your life to be nice and jolly and
When you say yeah,
but my life isn’t nice and jolly then you’ll be well
Just say nice things think nice things read scripture is gonna be okay for you
Prosperity gospel is this idea that sort of God’s a happy older brother and things are gonna work out for you
But historically I found that to be pack in people into an arena,
but there’s really no substance there
There’s nothing.
There’s no staying power there.
It’s just it sounds good feels good.
It’s good, but we’re the faith
Is underneath this providing a far more robust way of thinking about the world and our relationship to God and it is the reason
Why that prosperity gospel that you may know?
Can even exist as a theological idea?
Oh I’ve told you to start
So
We have just a maybe a few minutes for questions.
What would you actually find interesting to try to save us tonight?
Right and and you do
Do you see how that connects?
I didn’t make that explicit connection between how that that made sense for Pentecostalism
But you see how that works for worth of faith, right?
Yeah, because in that second work of grace that is when and in fact now today we’re the faith people are even talking about
A third work of grace,
but that’s a different thing
In that second work of grace you are empowered by the power of the Spirit to therefore live out these things which are now
a reality for you
Do we have a Pentecostal church
We do have a Pentecostal church in town though.
I do not know what if any denomination they’re affiliated with
across from the hospital
spirit life fellowship
Yeah, I suppose you need to know this so I
grew up in an assemblies of God
first in Southwest Minnesota
Then in St.
Cloud, which is where I grew up the majority of my life and then my
family became interested in the Copeland’s that is the individual who I read you the quote from and
Then we connected with a church in Brooklyn Park,
Minnesota, which is living word Christian Center,
which is a pastor,
Matt Hammond I had realized now this means anything,
but that is a worth of faith church in Brooklyn large
I would guess to 3,000 but
large I Actually drove an hour from St.
Cloud to that church for some of high school just to go to their youth group
For the theological purpose not just because it was like a good youth group
but I drove for that youth group and then that became a burden and so then we
We made a concession and I went to Joy Christian Center,
which was also in my hometown
Which was actually in my hometown?
Sorry and the pastor of Joy Christian Center was a graduate of
Rhema Bible Training Center and
therefore a student of Kenneth Hagin’s
So there I served in that church
multiple internships in their youth group
Want to go to Rhema Bible Training Center myself
Went with a group of friends to Tulsa broken arrows a suburb of Tulsa essentially went with my friends to Oral Roberts University
Which is in Tulsa for their college weekend,
so I could go to Rhema and apply
Yeah, we’re out of time essentially long story short
I did not I went to college weekend at or you because I needed a base camp to get to Rhema and
They gave me an application.
I threw the way and
Got back home my administrator of my high school a small private school
Had long looked out for me in many many ways was an incredibly godly and loving and an incredible woman of faith
And incredibly good to me
She took me aside one day in the hallway said Michael.
I know that you haven’t submitted a college application
I just want you to know
I’m not going to give you your diploma until you apply to at least one place and
I being a stupid high schooler believed that that was possible
So I submitted an application to or you got admitted stuff happened,
and I went to Oral Roberts University
Which is where this whole Presbyterian thing happened,
and that’s a different story
One observation one question,
I think it says
something of the nature of Pentecostalism
That there’s a 3,000 member church in Brooklyn Park
because that’s not
No one looks at Brooklyn Park and says I we can build a big church here unless you’re fishing
For a group that’s interested in a message
If not catered appealing to low lower socioeconomic
Yeah
Secondly this positive confession Mm-hmm
Somewhat cynical presbyterian
I Obviously
The word of faith folks their wheelhouse is the Old Testament, right?
I mean
Do good you get good do bad you get bad?
Well, I don’t know how much they do with the second half of that color,
but I’m gonna bless you
Keep my commandments you’re gonna get so is the positive confession
Away is that essentially a way through the New Testament without having to deal with the New Testament
What do you mean well the gospel of Luke
You don’t want well.
Whoa to you
All of the money language in the New Testament that doesn’t lean this direction in any way shape or form
The idea of the positive confession that you have arrived at Old Testament blessings in the New Testament covenant
Seems to be like a nice way around that Hmm
Well,
you’re finding problems, but there aren’t problems so
Specifically,
I mean the love of money is the root of all evil not money
And so Luke saying woe to those who are rich
I mean the look at the the attitudes in Matthew
that’s not an exaltation of the
That’s not an exaltation of what is Satan’s work that is a recognition that
In Christ all of that has been absorbed
That Christ is the God-bearer who
Sops up though the woe and evil of the world and therefore in the in the atoning moment of the cross that too dies
Yeah
I think you got a shoehorn pretty hard to read the New Testament that way Well
Yeah, so
Let’s let’s maybe end on the note of hermeneutics
Because once again, I truly meant I realized that this is using a vocabulary that that’s not native to you
And I realized that that in many ways this just sounds foreign
I have right here a King James Bible
Because that is the preferred Bible
For lots of historical reasons by Kenneth Copeland ministries,
and if you go to Deuteronomy 28
You will find in this Bible his entire
working out of his theology of
This in Scripture by the way this entire Bible
Has study notes from Kenneth Copeland
Not everyone can say that they’ve written a commentary in the Bible
Which is to say I mean
Well
Some of them are from Hagen so
Note on hermeneutics now there was how you read Scripture this if you came if you came to
Previous Lenten supper one year.
I brought out my Thomas Jefferson Bible.
This is sort of the autobiographical reason why
How you read Scripture matters a lot to me
Because I have read Scripture in many different ways in what’s a relatively short life
and for me
It is not the nature of how compelling the reading is
That matters because it was a very compelling reading of Scripture to me when I was in the world were the faith church
In other words what I experienced was not the dread and discomfort that you experience,
right?
Wherever you feel comfortable in church and whatever language you feel comfortable with that’s what I felt in that reading of Scripture
It wasn’t until I had this nexus of moments that happened in my life in which I could for a short moment
Rise up and look down on it and ask is it really true that if bad happens in my life?
I Have a lack of faith or could cancer just be cancer
Could it just be bad and
Then in that moment I could turn to Scripture and read it with a completely different light
Which now today is far more compelling for my view and experience of the world
but Christians let us never execute judgment on those who read differently than us before living in their shoes
Because how you experience Scripture and the compelling nature of it for you is shared by them
Even if and I would say to you by the way if you’re interested in if you’ve had any interest in this conversation I wrote a
65 page senior thesis of or you on this very topic
If you are interested in talking about the ways in which this errors,
and I’m very interested in talking about it
The problem is not pointing out planks
specs and other people’s eye but acknowledging the planks in our own and
Saying it is true that we can’t account and we can’t tidy up every section of Scripture
But your desire to do it
Needs to be held in check because back to the sermon today the point of Scripture is not to make everything make sense to you
All of the time it is to encounter the one who is the way the truth in the life
And if we have that then we have something
Let’s pray
Thank you Lord God for this night for these who gathered thank you that even in strange and foreign words
There’s hope and good news.
I pray that in this time in this moment
For all of those who seek to be faithful might your spirit be with them might we as we seek to
Be Christian to our own neighbors and to even those that we don’t understand help us Lord God to
Live and to love the way that you have help us to see in your scriptures the one who?
is
Life and life eternal might we recognize that and might it change us we pray in Christ Jesus our Lord amen
Thanks everyone
Next week will be normal again