The Next Chapter

Hello friends, welcome back to the pastor talk podcast
We are thrilled to have you join us again as we continue on through this series
Presby what it’s been a privilege having you join us for this.
We’ve got lots of feedback from people
lots of them who’ve been the Presbyterian Church for quite a while and
Some who grew up in other Christian traditions maybe Methodist Lutheran Catholic and saying that you know
There’s been some things in this that have been interesting.
So thanks for that feedback everyone
We continue on with our conversation today in which we’re gonna sort of pivot from a conversation
which we were talking a little bit about some of the
last 30 40 years of trends in the church to thinking about
Sort of what what do we look forward to the church’s response to these challenges?
We’ve seen Some of them in the rearview mirror and some of them are really present in our current conversation
So we’re calling that the next chapter and it’s gonna be a wide-ranging conversation thinking about what the Presbyterian of tomorrow is gonna look like
Yeah today is a probably the most subjective of the sessions that we’ve done Michael.
This is our Predictions and you know,
there’s a proverb that says only fools predict the future so that may apply
But as as we look forward to the challenges that the Presbyterian Church is going to have to face
What do we think they look like and what do we think that they demand?
From the church not only at the national level,
but at the congregational level.
How do they impact?
Presbyterians in their day-to-day life and we certainly don’t have these answers.
These are guesses on our part
we hope informed and thoughtful guesses,
but we do see some things as we have talked and as we have
Really put lots of thought into this over the years of the kind of things that the Presbyterian Church is going to have to figure out
If we’re going to survive that long-standing
Downward trend that this period in which we are
aging in our average
membership numbers and age as we are
shrinking in our number of churches as we are closing churches as we Are losing money?
We talked about lots of those negative things and if that continues,
you know That’s got an in that doesn’t have an indefinite shelf life that can only happen
For a certain amount of time and before there’s really just not enough resources left.
And so
Not to paint too dire of a picture
but if the PC USA doesn’t figure some of this out,
I think it’s likely to
predict that
This version of it at least won’t be sustainable in the future
And so what would it look like for Presbyterians to be sustainable and that’s kind of where we’re putting our thoughts today
Yeah, and I don’t want to spend too much time getting hung up on first things
But I do just have a couple other things I want to mention here
And the first is there’s a there’s several points in our conversation today Clint where I have good friends
Who are Presbyterians who are gonna disagree with us and there may be moments in which we point that out
There are differing ways of understanding what the path forward might look like for Presbyterians
And so that is just couched in the fact that though we have two voices
There are many out there in the Presbyterian Church at large and I think the second thing which surprised me
Significantly when I went to seminary and really dug into the Presbyterian community
Really following my undergraduate school time Clint is is really how little
Conversation there is on this topic
Versus what you would expect there might be now
Maybe that’s happening in places that I’m not aware of in fact
That’s likely but I will say you you might think that a young person going through seminary in which a moment in which
The decline of the church is obvious.
That’s a fact.
There’s no one who would dispute that reality
You might think that the seminary education the sort of national conversation that is made available
To people going through training you would think that there would be a lot of emphasis upon
What paths the church should be taking both at the national level but also at a local level and in my?
limited anecdotal experience was that that there was almost no conversation around that and so I
Do think that’s telling it’s not necessarily
Good or bad because there may be conversations happening that you know
I’m not privy to but I do think it’s worth saying that there’s not sort of a national voice
There’s not a particular leader
there’s not particularly one strain of this conversation and that I do think is unto itself a
Challenge that Presbyterianism writ large is going to have to deal with in the coming days
Yeah, you know you could assume that once a ship hits an iceberg all the following conversation is about
What do we do not to sink it right and
That’s an exaggeration of course
But I have not in my own time in the PC USA heard that kind of urgency there is this
Hope I think this kind of optimism that things are cyclical and that will figure it out
And then it’ll come back around I think that’s getting a little harder to maintain
I think that more and more people are just kind of hoping
That it happens after their watch
You know maybe that it’s down the road further than they need to worry about
Again, that might not be entirely fair.
There are some conversations at the national level about starting new
Ministry projects and and there are some organizations that have formed
either theologically or practically about
Addressing some of these issues,
but I would agree with you Michael.
I’ve not heard I
Think part of that is that maybe the strain is so
difficult for
Your average congregation that they’re so busy trying to tread water
That they just don’t have the resource and the bandwidth to engage in the big problem conversation because at the small problem conversation
They’re trying to pay the bills and they’re trying to fix the heater and they’re trying to get a couple of families to come to church
And they’re trying to figure out if they have if they have the resources to do Sunday school and whatever that looks like in their
particular context, but maybe that keeps us from
Maybe you have to have that conversation from a certain amount of stability that in many places
Right now doesn’t feel like it exists.
Yeah, and that’s maybe the first point that we need to address
Together is the reality that we are not on a sure-footed foundation
Denominationally and you could frame that differently.
You could frame it in terms of finances.
You could frame it in terms of leadership
Capability you could frame it in terms of congregational membership
But really the trend has been downward in most of those metrics.
We have less money
Directly accessible than we used to we have less people in the pews and therefore less
Experience less time that might be volunteered and as that happens the church has been addressing
differing levels of Responsive concern to that so as we have less people in the pews there’s been significant conversations and congregations
Can we still do VBS?
Can we still put together a all-day program or can we put together a night program?
And I do think you can really see a national
conversation lived out in practical terms at the
Congregational level if you looked at how the programs and each congregation have changed in the last 10 15 20 years and I guarantee you
Almost without exception you’re going to see that there’s been some form of adaptation or change
At these levels trying to address the the problems that have come with this slow decline
Yeah, I think the average congregation out there is trying to do
Some version of what they used to do with less money less people less staff
less resources than they had when they were doing it and
That’s a hard place to live and maybe doesn’t give us time for some of those
You know, how do you fix the big problem when you when you have to fix a hundred smaller problems first?
And there might be truth to that.
The one thing as we start this conversation Michael
I think we should also say is that we are fundamentally as we have this
As we undertake these conversations,
we’re fundamentally talking about change and
There is this wonderful phrase that I picked up somewhere early on in my ministry
I think from a management book if you keep doing what you’re doing you will keep getting what you’re getting and
The idea is that if we continue to give the same input,
we will continue to give the same output
It is amazing how often in the church.
We hope that doing the same thing will produce different results and it
Fundamentally is a flawed idea.
We will have to change some things if we’re going to navigate this next
part of our future if we are going to
Survive I’d rather say thrive
I mean I don’t think survival is a is an appropriate goal if we’re going to thrive in the next era that is ours to be
Presbyterian we’re going to have to do things differently than we used to we’re going to have to build new patterns new structures
We’re going to have to change some things and that is always painful for people who have a vested interest in the past
But it’s a it’s a fundamental truth of moving forward that what got you here
Won’t take you there and it doesn’t some of those things simply don’t work in the same way anymore
They’re not as productive.
They’re there.
They’re not as fruitful and
Yet we keep doing them
in some cases riding them into the ground and it doesn’t work so
We could have lots of conversation about the difficulties in congregations to address change
But it’s simply in this conversation you and I take for granted
That we can’t keep doing things the way we’ve done them and get different results
Yeah, I think a rather short illustration of that is the human condition is by itself innately adverse to change
Right now Walmart is doing remodeling and I hate going to Walmart because I cannot find anything
I just wish they’d leave Walmart alone
That’s innate to the human condition,
but even more so I think in religious
Institutions in churches it is hard for us to change because we’re not just going to pick up milk
There’s something about our family our kids have been baptized there.
We’ve maybe even been married there
We’ve shared both life joy sadness grief within this wall these walls within this community
We there’s a part of us in church and in a meaningful and and in many cases healthy way
But Rochelle and I that this can go to an extreme Rochelle and I went to England
we had the privilege of going to England with some friends and
Being who I am.
I wanted to go tour some churches
So we went to some country churches and Clint I was struck by two one was a church that we walked into
pristine clean perfect and
Almost void of life at the back of the church
There was a pamphlet with all of the historical information and meticulously put together about all of the influential people who had attended that church
Whose pew was whose who was buried in the church?
This was a Church of England Church.
So that was
Normal there and and it was clear that this was a beloved but preserved
Church then we went to another small town.
There was a church off the beaten path
We walked into this church and there were toys strewn across the back pew and there was posters
sort of cock-eyed on the wall and it just
Breathed the space itself
Clearly demonstrated people live here.
This is somebody’s church home people come here every week.
This is a living
congregation and That is the reality.
Are we willing to sort of let the sanctuary change?
That’s that’s a small example Clint
But the the kind of signs of life
Require us to be willing to let change happen so that the church the place for people
Can continue to welcome more people and when we stop doing that we move closer to that first church
Which was more of a museum than a community.
Yeah, and you know Michael there there again
there’s kind of a management business entrepreneurial rule that
If you’re afraid to fail you increase the chances that you will and I think in the church
We have often been afraid to try new things or to do things differently
Because quote-unquote they may not work
But the truth is if if we don’t try new things many of which may fail
We we will struggle to find the ones that don’t the ones that succeed and so that’s a change to our nature
and I think going forward we’re going to have to be more willing to
To try things to experiment we’re going to have to adapt in ways and
That’s not as we’ve talked about our history.
That’s not where we come.
We are thoughtful We love to plan
We love to cross all the T’s and dot all the I’s and have everything ready to go and we’re in an era
That may not let us
Do that to the extent that we’d like if you look at the business world one of the
Transitions that seems to have happened at least this isn’t
Analysis by people who I think no way more than I do is that we’ve moved from the the kind of corporate
Structure that we see in the Presbyterian Church to a much more nimble management style and so the idea of
monthly meetings and annual
Consultations and all of the things we do structurally
That has a lot of bandwidth and sucks up a lot of energy
And I think some very wise people are asking in the church.
Is that still a sustainable structure we live
We live in an era where something happens in China
We’re hearing about it in five to ten minutes if something is going on in the country
we have access to it almost instantly in the device in our pocket and yet we have to wait a
Year to approve a budget a month to have a meet
We we have this sort of slow cumbersome structure that has served us well
But I think the future is going to demand that Presbyterians find ways to be more nimble and to handle business
in a less cumbersome way Right it this last six months is in many ways proof of that congregations who were nimble were able to quickly
Sort of face the new day.
What tools do we need for our worship services online?
And how are we going to do that that required?
Congregational willingness to engage quickly if you send that to committee and ask what are we gonna do that a month later?
maybe you have a few ideas and not even solutions and I think we do like the idea as Presbyterians of
this sort of larger higher
conversation that then sort of slowly trickles down through the system that we go to the General Assembly and that they talk about a
national issue and then they
Make a proposal that’s been in committee for five years and we feel good that our seminary professors have thought about it
And wrote about it prayed about it
And and we we like the idea that then that goes to presbyteries and they do the same they discern they vote and all of this
Has its time in place?
There’s certainly moments in which
Utilizing the entire to use the language corporate structure matters,
but Clint There’s also this reality that what the first Presbyterian Church in Spirit Lake needs right now to be faithful
May be significantly different than what first Presbyterian Church of Jamaica Queens needs right now or first
Presbyterian Church of Chicago or second Indianapolis, right?
Wherever you are
We as a church need to be mindful of our immediate context and that requires a kind of nimbleness in leadership in
both the pastoral leadership, but also
Congregational committee session bow and I would even go as far as to say
Congregational members willingness to be oh to be nimble in the season to to allow some grace for experimentation
Otherwise, none of this really matters.
Yeah, and you think about the average congregation would take us for example We need
24
Leaders, we have two boards our elders and our deacons 12 apiece
Meaning that every year we’re electing people for a three-year term
Which also means that every year a third of your leaders are brand new have to be brought up to speed
It also means that in a congregation you’re looking for,
you know, some significant percentage of those who attend regularly and and our members to serve in those leadership roles and for many churches that
is
Taxing here.
We are very fortunate with the level of volunteerism with the level of skill and
It’s not an issue in a place like this.
But when you get to those smaller churches
they’re struggling just to have a session and you you
Hold that, you know practically you hold that over against say the community church model
Which has a small leadership team.
They they don’t have 12 committees.
They don’t have 10
They have a very small leadership team that is nimble that is vested with lots of authority
Which is of course a risk
But it’s a much it’s a much.
It’s a structure that is much more able to navigate quickly and
to make decisions
You can let a kind of
Leadership personality grow through a change like that
And and I’m not advocating that the Presbyterian Church needs to get rid of how we govern congregations
But I I do think that places that are doing well are largely not doing it the way that we are doing it
Across the board.
I think to connect that to a previous conversation Clint.
We have already talked about how
Structurally the Presbyterian Church has pushed a lot of leadership down the chain
It’s it’s pushed it closer to the congregational level and that is both a blessing and a curse if a congregation has leadership has
Congregants who are willing to engage with that?
newfound sort of ability that comes through the nimbleness
Then that can be good news if you’re a congregation who doesn’t have some of those resources in leadership and in willingness
those congregations are and are going to continue to struggle because the more and more that we
Decentralized and we push down towards the local we enable congregations to respond to their community
But if they’re not ready for that,
they’re going to be congregations who will struggle under the weight of that responsibility
Yeah, and again as a pastor who has been blessed to have
many instances of Great session members and great teams of people on the session
That’s when things get done and you have that group of people and to see them rotate off when they are not
Done serving when they would stay and when they would the kind of leadership that that could provide
Would be interesting and I think that’s a place that the Presbyterian Church our leadership structure is going to have to be
Reconsidered it seems to me as we move forward the the other disconnect that I think you and I have talked about a great deal
It’s overstated, but this idea of print culture
versus digital culture and
You don’t have to hang along hang around the Presbyterian Church very often to realize that we are
Probably it is fair to call us print culture people.
We’re still printing bulletins
Our people are still reading books
With I’m what I mean is
covers pages physical books
We have hymnals we have pew Bibles, you know
And and Presbyterians we have been good at that.
We have done that well
But that’s not the world we have been and you would know this better than most we have been slow to embrace
web technology, we’ve been slow to
Embrace social media.
Those are things that the Presbyterian Church has struggled to incorporate and it’s
Partly it’s not just that we’re not good at them.
I don’t think that’s fair
It is that they’re not part of our culture.
They’re not part of how we’ve done things
Yeah, Clint that is an interesting place
We could probably have a whole conversation of that just because I have more opinions than I do
But I think that we as a church do bring helpful
Questions to the conversation of digital right because we were I talked about in this these conversations about how Presbyterians are
Unfairly you might call us
Skeptical but we’re certainly critical and we’re thoughtful and we come to technology and we say
Hey, you know what?
Just because it’s on a screen doesn’t make it good and we want to we want to have some theological
Reflectiveness and some nuance and all of that Clint.
I think we need to bring you the table
but we have in many cases allowed that to hamstring us to keep us from going into places and
Experiencing and trying what it might be like and I do think that one of the marks of a church’s health
Is their willingness to speak to people who aren’t immediately in the circle,
right?
To keep the doors open so that people might find themselves welcome
And the reality is we live in a day in which many of people’s first encounter with churches is not
inside our North exes or our sanctuaries,
but rather on their device and
That is maybe not a thing that we’re entirely comfortable with
But if we’re not aware of it and take it seriously
There will be people that we will miss an opportunity to welcome physically in the name of Jesus Christ
And so I think we do need to start being mindful that we shouldn’t
Put all of our eggs into one basket
But we should seek to try to reach the largest group of people that we can for the gospel and that’s going to require us
Making some uncomfortable moves into spaces.
We’ve not traditionally been comfortable in
Yeah, and you know you think of this practically what does a church need in order to grow a church needs
participation and Ideally in in the best sense a church is going to see that participation over a full spectrum of the age range
and that means with some of your
Lifelong Presbyterians and those who are maybe retirement aging up that they’re we’re good at that
We reach out to those folks.
Well that we’re accessible,
but if you think from about
Somewhere in the mid 40s,
I suppose or maybe even call it 40 and down
So what we might call young people quote-unquote or even young families
Though the ways in which they receive information about the church the ways in which they search for a congregation
The things they’re looking for.
It’s a very different
pathway now, I think that
I think that they both appreciate the same things.
They both appreciate community.
They both appreciate openness welcome warmth
But they get to your congregation in very different ways
one is sort of word-of-mouth and the other is very much with those digital tools and a
church that isn’t trying to do all of that is I think in some ways really hampering their
their mission to out to do outreach to the
What we might call the younger part of the of the age range,
you know I don’t want this at all to sound like back patting
It is though a learning that’s happened from what you’ve already described as experimentation
What happens when you experiment you learn things you wouldn’t expect?
one of the things that I’ve learned during this COVID season Clint is that we
Will have a response from younger people to Bible studies in a digital space than what I expected
Let me give you an example
I was just literally having a conversation with a young person in their 30s who
Has never been to a men’s Bible study at first Presbyterian Church
It would have landed at a time that they couldn’t have participated who has told me that every day that they can
They watch the daily Bible study at work that that’s a space and time that they can access and they enjoy that and it
Struck me.
Oh, wow Just by simply changing the context
We’ve enabled this individual to now engage with a ministry of the church in this case on a daily basis now
That’s not necessarily just because it worked in one person’s life.
You do it forever never changing
That’s not what I’m suggesting
What I am suggesting is when you experiment you do find out in in these instances
Oh wait, we can reach people that we weren’t reaching before if we try this thing
Maybe that’s the thing we need to take seriously
Yeah And I I think you know
That’s a place that lots of churches struggle and to be honest
It’s not a place that I’ve seen a lot of resources from our
Denomination our national church.
I don’t think helps at the grassroots level in terms of how do we use the
Technology and tools.
How do we evaluate them?
How do we apply them and and how can we?
How can we incorporate them into how we’re doing things in order to do them a better to do them well
I think that will certainly be
Ground that we’re going to have to cover.
I don’t think culture is going to let us continue to be
Lazy in those areas or to be uninvolved in those areas,
right?
Well because we live in a moment that’s filled with tensions and filled with opposition in the cultural space in the larger culture
That’s that surrounds us and Clint that problem is writ large within our own
Presbyterian family we we are really struggling with a tension between
unity as people of Christ who are bound together by our faith and our common affirmation and
Unanimity that we are all going to be the same that we’re all going to think the same that we’re all going to register the vote the same
We are on a national level and I think even we could most Presbyterians could even point to this at the local
Congregational level we are
We are struggling in our larger
Context to remain faithful to the unity that we have in Christ as as there seems to be much
a deeper rutted paths that are happening in our public discourse a
Presbyterians are finding themselves taking some similar stances on opposite sides and that makes it difficult
I think for us to continue to work forward on some of the things that require our unity in Christ
Yeah, and in some ways we have been a church that has pursued diversity
Michael, I think you’d have to say
Particularly in the
Sexuality gender conversations that we’ve had over the last 30 years.
There is a large segment of the Presbyterian Church that has
Been very concerned and passionate about being open to the full range of people within our
cultural experience But in other areas,
I think we have struggled
Specifically racial ethnic.
I think that we we talk a great deal about diversity
We don’t practice it very well at the local level
There are very very few congregations in the Presbyterian Church that you can walk into on a Sunday morning
When that happened used to happen and you’re going to find a mixed racial crowd.
You may find
Some diversity, but it’s going to be
individuals here and there an African American family an Asian family
In and in this part of the world where diversity is not a strength to begin with
That’s certainly going to be true.
But really across the board
Presbyterians have
We have been fairly well contained in
White middle-aged white middle class and
We’re going to have to break out of that for the Presbyterian Church to be strong and thriving in the future is
Going I think to demand that we find a way to incorporate
our church Throughout different groups different neighborhoods
different life experiences
And you know
The the the gender sexuality stuff it has some theological tension in it
and there are people that have different views on that and
Argue arguments as we well know we’ve been obsessed with that argument for decades in the PC USA
But the racial ethnic there’s no such theological
I mean that’s something we have to do we claim that we want to be the church and we know that the church the
Gospel is for all people and we don’t
Just to be blunt.
We don’t do a very good job of living that out in our Presbyterian membership
and I think we’re going to have to get better the the idea of
Sort of single
Statistic churches
Is just not I think that’s not a space we’re going to be able to occupy in the future.
We are going to have to be
More diverse and more conscious of that,
you know, I think Presbyterians
Need to get there.
And the only way that we can get there Clint is that we emphasize
the gospel the mission of
Jesus Christ given to the church and to be less concerned about the sort of cultural
Framework the issues that surround us and by and large
Presbyterians are now alone in this other mainline congregations are the same
We are tempted to adopt wholesale the framework of issues that are in
Public discourse, but that’s not always a helpful model
We are often because of Christ called to love our neighbor and yes even our enemy we often as Christians come to
Conversations being had in the wider culture with a kind of grace for both parties or with a nuanced
Perspective on both issues and the Presbyterian Church has at its worst
it has walked some of those lines of picking issues of that you have to
Sort of be on this side or that side and there are times in which having a stance matter
Don’t hear me as being a relativist
but I do think that there are important moments in which we are committed to going out to
baptizing the name of Jesus Christ you remind and tell the world that surrounds us that Jesus Christ loves and
Forgives us and desires to be in relationship with us and Clint we so often
Churches are much quicker to go in and pay thousands of dollars to get a sign that they put in their front yard
Then they are moved to go and invite their neighbor to church or to go and bring food to the person who just had
Surgery and to sit with them even if they’re not a church member, right?
we sometimes forget the power of
Relationship the power of going and sharing love and grace with other people for doing the work of Christ in the world and
and we sort of replace that for stances on issues and signs and bulletins and and I do think that we
Need to in some ways reframe away from some of the easier things that we’ve committed to
Towards the more difficult relational things that strike much closer to the scriptural account of what we’re called to be
Yeah, in some ways Michael,
I would say this is a
Contrast to some of what we’ve talked about earlier in in this sense
There are places say the print versus digital say the diversity versus uniformity
There are places where I think
We have to move toward the culture around us
We we want to follow some of the example the world is becoming more diverse
The world is becoming more nimble.
The world is becoming more digital and to function in that world.
We need to
At least take some small steps that direction in this regard
I would say just the opposite right the world is becoming more divisive
The world is becoming more issue single-issue driven
the the world is happy to hold up a sign and a chant a slogan for
A couple of days until the next one happens and then go on and I think in that regard the church
Can’t follow that we we can’t do that.
We cannot be Single-focused we cannot just go on to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing
We have to stand in a place where we say
the gospel determines our response and our
Engagement with the issues of the world.
It’s not the issue for its own sake.
It’s what the issue
Has to do with being the people of Jesus Christ,
which is our central and unchanging mission
And the issues will come and go to some extent
but I think we do ourselves a disservice when we
Simply jump on the next bandwagon and and I’m not accusing
the Presbyterian Church of doing that though there are times when
We move quickly from thing to thing and it sort of feels that way
Yeah, actually, this is the point the conversation where I wanted to say I have close friends who are going to argue at this point
juncture that we’re wrong and that the church needs to be more clear focused on issues and make clear statements and with a kind of
I would argue uniformity.
They would argue unity move forward towards addressing those issues
I think the temptation in doing that however is to
rather not the temptation the the weakness of that is the closer you get to adopting the cultural framework of issues the
Farther I think you are from being able to evaluate that from a gospel lens and we’re often
Compelled to do things that are far more nuanced than what the cultural conversation is capable of doing
The church has a long history of running into cities to save those who are sick while
Everybody else in the city is running out and some of those people who are sick would have been enemies of the people running in
To save them.
I think the church has at its best been driven by the love of
Christ for neighbor and for enemy and so therefore Clint we have to call upon a higher order
Both morally, but also I think theologically and to whatever extent we allow ourselves to become pigeonholed in one issue or even four issues
I think we begin to lose some of that
Theological authenticity that we find in being unified
Truly unified in Jesus Christ.
And so yeah, I’m making that sound easy
It’s not they’re going to be those who say that you’re forsaking
Gospel issues in doing that and there are going to be substantive
Disagreements about how to move forward in that context.
But however, we do so
I do think we we need to be mindful of a higher calling than just sort of engaging in single issue conversations
Yeah, I want to be clear that
Neither of us is saying that the issues don’t matter.
The issues are vitally important
And right and what we’re not suggesting is that we skip over them and and ignore them or not pay attention to them I think
what what I’m saying, Michael is
Those are moments when our heritage of being a little on the slow and thoughtful side
probably help us and
culturally, we seem to be losing that that moment of pausing to reflect
Before we act and speak and I think the church offers some wisdom there in being able to say
It this issue does matter,
but let’s make sure we’ve given it due diligence
Let’s make sure we have thoughtfully
Looked at all the various aspects.
We owe that to the world before we begin making pronouncements
we owe it to be as as
Thorough as we can and that’s tough in a digital world
Yeah, that’s tough when a thing pops up and there’s a reaction to it immediately and
The the church wants to be a voice in that and have a voice in that and the church needs to have a voice in that
we just want to make sure that it is thoughtful that it is reflective and
that it is I
Don’t know if I want to use the word balance that it is carefully considered
Yeah, we will as we continue on as
Presbyterians have to grapple with what defines our identity as Presbyterians was the best of the tradition that we’ve
Inherited that we will need to carry with us as part of who we are as our culture as our people as what we allow
to define and to
Define in the sense of all of those different pieces the thoughtfulness the theological
Clarity the desire to be a connected church
What part of these traditions are we going to carry forward forward with us as an as our part of our core?
identity and what things are the the aspects of our
Ministries and our programs and our worship style that we have done historically
That we need to either experiment with or we need to continue or we need to simply
Try new branches and those conversations.
I think are empowered by this
Decentralization that we’ve talked about Clint,
but it also in many ways
Challenges it because the farther down that we push the more that we allow congregations to experiment
The harder sometimes it is for us to learn from one another, right?
It can be hard for us to hear what first presu city is doing
Because we don’t see them as often because those stories get told with less frequency and that is another challenge
We’re going to have to overcome if we want our identity to be Presbyterians who are connected
Well, what are the mechanisms of doing that if you don’t have a strong corporate ladder that passes things up and down more often
Down than up and those are things that I’m not sure we have ready answers for
Sure, and the idea that you go to a presbytery meeting
Every month or every quarter and and that makes you connected to other congregations
is just
Really not it’s just no longer an idea.
I don’t know if it ever worked
I suspect there was a time than it did.
I think of the pastor.
I grew up with he loved
Presbytery meetings that was his church his fellowship.
That’s where he saw other pastors.
That’s where they shared stories
I don’t know if those meetings continue to function like that for people.
Maybe they do for some
but I Think to many of us they feel like something that takes a lot longer
than it should without accomplishing any real change and that’s not a criticism of our presbytery,
it’s it’s a
critique I guess of that broader structure and so
Are we Presbyterian because we do Presbyterian things or is there something inherent in our?
belief system in the way that we approach the gospel that makes us Presbyterian and for me
It’s it’s a do versus a be question, you know
I remember
For many years as we discussed a second service here and maybe incorporating a different style
People said things like well,
I don’t like that.
That’s not Presbyterian.
What do you what isn’t Presbyterian?
Well having a drum set isn’t presby Well,
are you do you mean that making music making praise music singing praise to God and using drums is?
somehow
Unpresbyterian.
Yes, it isn’t why isn’t it presbytery because we’ve never done it
but but those conversations about do
are not generally helpful as we try to understand who we are trying to be and
I think they’re fascinating but often
Often they’re not entirely helpful and to me Michael
This is where the great irony of being Presbyterian lives you and I’ve had this conversation many times
Presbyterians are well suited to the age in which we live
We are thoughtful We’re open to new ideas
We do not approach the gospel with a checklist of things you have to believe
We have room for diversity.
We have room for disagreement
We have always been able to somehow put people in the pews who call themselves
Conservative or liberal or this thing or that thing and we’ve said we can be church together and in our day and age
That should be working who we are is well suited
To this age, but what we do
Is less well suited and it’s time to find things
New things to do and new ways of doing things
Without somehow believing that changes who we are for instance
I can talk about this the other way have a good friend that went to serve as an associate pastor of the church
The the pastor told him we’re not going to do a prayers of confession anymore
Why not?
People don’t like them
Well, that’s that’s backwards.
Of course people don’t like them
But what do we need as people we need to confess that we’re broken.
That’s the path to healing
That’s the path to God.
We can’t simply not
We have to find a way to do things that reflect who we are
But in ways that work and I think that’s a monumental struggle for us in the moment.
We’re in right now
Yeah, and Clint you speak to that in a way that I think
identifies very much the
Structural challenge of that the worship that example is an example of how that’s lived out in worship
I think it’s maybe readily apparent to everyone in the conversation how that’s going to be a challenge as a
Group of Presbyterians at a presbytery level a synod in general assembly
Our structure is going to struggle with that
But it may be too easy for us if we don’t slow down and pause to recognize how difficult that is for us
individually as Members of a congregation maybe even as someone who would be uncomfortable calling yourself
Presbyterian but goes to a Presbyterian church
It can be a struggle when the very thing that was
welcoming that was Challenging that was engaging for you in the midst of worship or the midst of education or fellowship or whatever it was about the place
Where you’re being fed and you seek to be growing in your faith when that is the thing that starts to
Experimented with when that’s the thing that might change
We’re all I think people at this table included can become very anxious and uncomfortable in that presence
And what is required is some humility some patience some grace
Quite frankly the the willingness to engage in authentic and honest
Conversations that is the best of what it means to be Presbyterian if we can live into that
Uncomfortable space and we can do so with thoughtfulness and with grace
We are already living into the best of what it means to be Presbyterian.
We’re living into our identity as people
But we have to identify name and be honest about there’s going to be challenges down that road
We are going to struggle not just as a system or group of people who call themselves Presbyterians
we’re all going to have a moment where we share some struggle in that and we
Seek to as people of faith trust Christ to lead us through it.
Yeah, I think for me Michael
one of the ways I frame that is what are our non-negotiables and
one of the areas in which we struggle has to do with when we confuse our preferences for
our Essential practices it is so let me take that example
Presbyterians are we need to confess our sin that that’s a non negotiable.
We believe Theologically that we are broken people and that confronting our brokenness is the pathway to grace in Jesus Christ
It does open us to humility and to discipleship and to growth to confess
our tendency to get it wrong our tendency to judge our tendency to
Exclude our tendency to do all of those things that that our brokenness leads us to that’s a non-negotiable
Singing with drums or piano
Mm-hmm.
That’s a preference
Worship is a non negotiable
the the way in which we worship has plenty of wiggle room in it and when we confuse our
Non-negotiables as a people with our preferences as individuals
we’re going to struggle and we need to be able to come to a table together and
Discuss those things in some real ways
So we have a wonderful woman in this church no longer with us who said the day you bring in a drum set
I’m out.
I’m leaving and I said do you think God hates drums?
She said no,
but I do and right that’s a that’s a wonderful illustration of the difference and and
Presbyterians at the at the individual level each of us if we’re going to move forward
collectively are going to have to say I
Don’t get to have every preference.
I I can’t I’m not guaranteed
This is about our fundamental convictions not my individual
Preferences, and I think we’re going to have to
I think we’re going to have to figure that out as we move forward we we need a space in which
Everybody can be engaged at some point and at some moment everyone says boy that really worked for me
But you may not get that all that there may be times that the gratitude you have is knowing
Okay, that really worked for my neighbor that really worked for the young African-American boy in the pew in front of me
That worked for the Hispanic family over there that I’m planning to meet after the service if we could get to something like that
Then we are in my estimation making great progress
Yeah, this is a extreme
oversimplification that but I don’t know any other way into it is that when the church lives unto
itself and towards its own end
It will always lead us away if it’s about our preference and preserving the things that
Make us comfortable which aren’t all bad things.
I won’t be overly critical of that
There are some things that that may help us to connect to the living God
But it should never be about us.
The gospel compels us
Jesus Christ calls us to live outside of ourselves when we come to the moment of offering in a service
That is a moment that should every week
Reorient us so that we might remember the one who showed us that God’s will is self-sacrifice
Jesus Christ lived living into God’s best plan gave his life for us
The expectation is that the servant is no greater than their master.
We are called to love and serve others full stop
The moment we make the life of church about personal preference place of comfort
Advancing the things that we like about the church
We are failing to live into the gospel call to live beyond ourselves and friends.
We’re doing this study of the book of Proverbs
It’s interesting in that study
Wisdom is often very difficult to grasp.
It often falls through the hand what’s right in one setting isn’t right in another
So I’m not making
Eternal edicts that can be applicable in every moment of every congregation or any congregation
There are sometimes that discerning the Spirit of God is it requires wisdom and diligence and prayer and humility
But friends if it ever turns us towards ourselves if it ever turns church inward
That is a pretty surefire
Definition that we’ve not lived into the gospel of Jesus Christ and we should pause and reflect and change
yeah, and that in the language that I use Michael, that’s the
necessity of the non-negotiables to say
That there are things that cannot be compromised.
There are ideas There are beliefs that we cannot sacrifice in the pursuit of growth it
Yes, we could do lots of things that may bring in people
But if we if we only chase preferences and if we sacrifice our core to do it
Then we’re no longer church
We’re just doing what we think people want and if we start with the core if we can start with the gospel
And if we understand what that is
Then we will find lots of ways to connect that with people in ways that are meaningful to them and attractive to them and
That is what the church should do what the church should not do is start the other way and say what do people want?
let’s give them that instead of the gospel and I think
one of the fundamental if if I were to put my finger on
the core struggles of the PC USA is
That if you ask
Presbyterians what our non-negotiables are what is the core of the gospel that we cannot sacrifice?
I think
The average Presbyterian may struggle.
I’m not sure that we as
Congregations and as denomination have communicated very well what it is
that we consider
Irreplaceable Non-negotiable where the lines are we have in the attempt to be
Sort of all things to everyone
Made it difficult for the people of our church to say
This is the line that we don’t cross and I know that that’s troubling language and we could spend a lot of time
Parsing it out.
And what do we mean?
What do we not mean?
But I think fundamentally
When you’re in a moment of struggle
It’s easy to believe that
Fixing the issues lives out where the issues are.
We just need to get more people in church
We just need to get a praise band instead of an organist.
We just need to make people wear shorts instead of ties
Those aren’t the thing those are those are symptomatic things
They’re not fundamental things and I think one of the problems we struggle with at the congregational level is
We’re trying to fix symptoms without addressing the actual problem itself
I think my final word here Clint is if someone’s joined this conversation in some ways the way that we frame this may make it
sound so simple and part of that is because
It’s been a blessing that you and I in so many ways
Do come to this conversation with some very similar
convictions and the truth is we both know people who would come to this conversation and
And they would have differing ways of engaging with this content.
They would frame it differently
they would suggest that there are different roads that the Presbyterian Church is going to need to take towards health and at our best I
Think that’s great it’s good that there are people are out there who are thinking deeply who are seeking to find and and to
Celebrate the core identity of being Presbyterian as people who are called by known by love by Jesus Christ
The only way forward is going to look like Presbyterians
listening to one another
engaging in meaningful Conversations to try to hold that core identity in a connected humble loving way
but also to be willing to move beyond the level of comfort for the love of neighbor and
You’re gonna see that happening as time goes on in our own
Congregation certainly I think we’ve seen ways in which we continue to try do that not just in this last six months
But for years before my arrival
That’s going to be happening on a national level as well
And there’s no way of predicting what that will look like in terms of structures or what it’ll look like in the life of every
Congregation it’s going to affect different communities differently
But the sure and and complete hope that we as people of faith can have is that Jesus does not leave the church
Jesus will be with his people and we can trust he’ll be with us in this season
Whatever may come.
Yeah, and my last thought Michael is I want to
Suggest and you know,
I I’m biased in this because I occupy the space that I’m about to
Credit I Do not think the path of the Presbyterian Church into the future will be salvaged by
the structures in In other words, I don’t think this is a top-down fix
I don’t think in the hierarchy of our system the general assembly is going to come up with something
that trickles down and
creates a kind of
Reformation and renovation
To the Presbyterian Church as a whole now the the denomination at that level is working hard to provide
opportunities and education and direction and
They’re doing their best and I applaud that
But I think ultimately if there is a path of change for the Presbyterian Church
It’s from the ground up and the quickest in my estimation way
to a different outcome is for
congregations
to create
spaces where people have an
experience of Jesus Christ in a vibrant living community and when that begins happening when we get more of our congregations
being places of life and
wholeness and Diversity and learning to love each other despite our differences and making people feel welcome and
Serving their non-negotiables in ways that are real in their context.
That’s when it changes
This is not for me a not it’s not a top-down process.
This is very much
something that gets addressed from the the very ground level and
works its way up and the fastest way to health in the Presbyterian Church as I see it is
to have more and more
healthy vibrant churches and that means change at the level that change is probably the hardest and
Therefore, I think it’s very demanding upon people who sit in our places of leadership
people who lead at a congregational level where it’s really I think where the rubber meets the road and
At some point if we can’t do that if we can’t get more and more of our churches
Being places that are
thriving instead of struggling
Then there’s no fix that can come down from on high
It just isn’t going to be able to help us
We we if we can’t move toward tithing if we can’t move toward prayer if we can’t move toward faithfulness at the local level
Then I’m not sure
Ultimately that we’re going to be able to
See the kind of changes that will allow us to survive in the future
That’s well said Clint.
Well, thank you for joining us in this conversation
We hope that there’s been something that has been engaging
Maybe it helps you chart your own path and your understanding of what it means to be
Presbyterian and worshiping and serving and loving within a Presbyterian context friends
We know how simple this conversation really is
There’s so much more depth of beyond what we could possibly touch in an hour and yet in the midst of it
I think the simple truth is as it often does
Surfaces and that is that we are about being people who?
Serve the Lord Jesus Christ and as we do that
Well as a community
I think that we will continue to be able to have a witness to a world that desperately needs it and we do that not by
Our strength up by his yeah,
and thank you for being part of the conversation
Love to hear your thoughts ideas.
Send them to us email leave comments.
We very much
Understand that we don’t know anything and we learn more as we pursue the the conversation
So if you’d like to join in it,
we’d love to hear your voice
Well friends, that’s all for us
We look forward to having our next conversation with you next week Wednesday at 9 o’clock Central Standard Time,
but until then be blessed.
Thanks