What is the Enneagram?

Hey, First Press, welcome back to the pastor talk podcast version two,
as we move into
Lent and our study this Lenten season on the Enneagram,
which may be something you haven’t
heard of, but it is an interesting tool that we have for both spiritual and personal assessment.
It has a long history,
it’s kind of an ancient tool,
it’s been of interest to mystics and
Christians and people from different religions,
but it can be a really helpful eye opening
experience to go through it.
As we talked about what to do this Lent,
Michael happened to be reading some on the Enneagram
and Michael want to tell us just your experience and kind of how you got to it and how you found it.
Yeah, so as often is the case,
I think when you come to read something,
you maybe find out that you’re late to the party and the Enneagram has been very popular now for some
time.
It’s very widely used in seminaries and different even undergraduate programs use it.
I’ve heard of some undergraduate schools where every student is required to take this assessment
and they roll it into their programming.
But for me,
this really this new year has been my first encounter with it.
I had some friends who were reading it and invited Rochelle and I to read it with them.
And so we picked up a primer on that and went through it and had just a really an interesting
sort of lively discussion about what it was and the philosophy of it.
And it seemed really interesting.
And then it was both a blessing and a curse to start reading through some of the things
that had to say about personalities.
And I can tell you exactly where I was and what I was doing at the moment that I got
to me because it kind of felt like the walls came tumbling down a little bit.
It was like looking in a mirror and seeing myself for the first time and thought,
oh,
yeah,
if it knows that much about me,
it might have something good to say about what the
next steps are.
So it’s been now a process of learning more about it.
What’s behind it?
What’s the history of it?
How does it have this to say about me?
And I’ll be honest,
even a lot of just personal generative conversation about what does it
look like for me to grow spiritually in this next chapter of my own life.
So I found it very personally generative,
though that comes with the caveat of saying
it hurts a lot before it has started to feel better.
Yeah, I think on first blush,
a lot of people might be tempted to call the Enneagram a personality
inventory, but I think, Michael, that you’ve got your finger on the pulse of it by saying
it does have this component that is personal examination.
In other words,
we could all probably reasonably accurately say for introverts or extroverts
if we’re orderly or if we’re not orderly.
But the Enneagram is less concerned with things like that than it is.
What are we basically afraid of?
What are our core struggles,
our sort of baseline issues within who we are as people
that create for us the framework in which we live both in a healthy sense and in an
unhealthy sense?
Is that fair?
Yeah, I think so.
And I want to offer the invitation.
Make sure to come to the Sunday session because we’re going to talk a little bit about the
differences between personality and what we think the Enneagram is doing.
But I do think maybe a tip towards that is to say that I find the Enneagram to be a very
spiritually focused lens.
So if you’ve done some of that personality stuff in the past and you say,
you know, I feel pretty good about knowing what my personality strengths are,
I would really encourage you
to pay attention to this because this is ancient.
It’s thousands of years old.
It reaches far back and has a rich Christian history,
but it also has some ecumenical even
beyond Christian history.
So there’s a sense in which there’s a lot here.
And instead of it being focused on maybe your mental proclivities or your habits,
it’s really honing in on a spiritual reality.
In other words, it’s not just about what do I do in this circumstance.
It’s about why do I do it?
And it invites you to consider that both personally,
but also there’s some beautiful kind of theological
and scriptural connections woven into this.
Yeah, and not surprising for something that’s been around for thousands of years,
it is layers and layers deep.
And you can get far off in the weeds with this.
But at its heart,
the Enneagram suggests that there are nine basic types of people.
And it categorizes you in one of those nine types,
or more fair to say,
it helps you find
yourself in one of the nine types and identify some of your strengths and weaknesses,
some of your basic tendencies,
some of your basic assumptions,
and how those can be both good
for you and bad for you,
depending on what you do with them,
how aware of them you are.
And therefore, I think it gives us a real opportunity to grow,
albeit through facing some of the things that we may not be entirely comfortable admitting.
It will, I think, bring us to the point where we have to face some truth about ourselves
that isn’t always going to be comfortable,
but therein is part of its gift.
Right. And Clint,
we can’t anticipate what other people’s experience with the Enneagram will
be, right?
We can’t predict
that you will have a moment in which it will feel like scales come down
from your eyes, or we can’t predict that this will be a momentous thing in your own spiritual
walk.
But I do think there’s an invitation here,
and there’s certainly an opportunity here,
because I would encourage you not to come to this conversation in this Lenten season
with the assumption that the thing that you’ve always believed to be your weaknesses,
that that will be the thing that you get beat up with.
In fact, my experience was very much the opposite.
The stuff that I would have named at the beginning of my journey is the stuff that I later learned
was not really even at the center at all,
that the Enneagram really helped to sort of
refocus on my imagination in a way in which I could say,
wow, this is way deeper.
This is way closer to the real core of my identity and who I am.
And that is the part that makes it challenging,
right?
If it’s surface level stuff,
if it’s just, oh, you have a funny proclivity when you’re
at this point of the day or whatever,
that kind of stuff,
you laugh off and you move
away from.
But when you see yourself and say,
that is a real reflection of deep brokenness,
something that we as Christians are convicted that we should have the courage to face,
that if you have that encounter, it’s going to hurt.
And if you’re willing to allow the Enneagram to point you in a new direction,
and if you to have that experience of seeing yourself in a new light,
it will be challenging.
But I doubt it would be challenging in the way that you might predict today.
Yeah,
not to be too mystical about it,
Michael, but I think the spiritualist might say that
we have a near endless ability to live as our false self
and to believe whatever narrative
we have created.
And I think one of the benefits of something like the Enneagram is it forces us to look
at the story we tell ourselves about who we are and what we are and kind of fact check them.
And we will inevitably find out because we are broken people who live under the reality
of sin, that some of what we think is reality isn’t altogether real,
that some of our narrative
we have created to protect ourselves or to boost our ego,
or to impress other people,
or to be in control.
And the Enneagram, I think is a helpful tool to kind of help us flush that out.
And then I think gently ask us what now what once we’re aware of those things,
we also become maybe less confident that we know all the truth we think we do.
Yeah, I wonder if you would agree with this,
Clint.
I think that we who come from the Reformed tradition maybe have less of a history plumbing
the depths of different kinds of sinfulness.
We have a very robust theology of the brokenness of humanity.
We’re the first on the starting block to say that we as humans are broken and that it’s
only God’s grace by which we are saved.
But plumbing out and really exploring the typologies of the different kinds of sinfulness,
I think I would say is not something that I’ve at least experienced to be a strong
point in our church family,
our larger church family.
Would you agree with that?
I would.
And I think the Enneagram is interesting there,
Michael, in that it’s not real directive.
And what I mean by that is many people would suggest to fight your instincts.
So when you hear about the Enneagram,
the temptation is going to be jump on the internet,
find a 10-question test,
and figure out your number.
But the Enneagram is going to encourage you instead to spend a little time with each of
the numbers and see which one convicts you the most.
And rather than try to simply give you a category or pick something that you’re “guilty of”
to use Reformed language,
the Enneagram is going to say,
“Try these various lenses.
One of them is likely to speak to you.
And when it does,
now you know the realm in which some of your struggles may lie.
And you may even be able to learn some of the motivations and fears behind them.
And in the church,
we might use the word “confession” as the moment we face our brokenness.
But I think there’s a sense in which the Enneagram invites us to that moment.
So I would encourage people not to treat this so much as a test or as a thing and more of
a process.
It will help you figure out some things about yourself,
but that’s not a task to be done.
That is a quest,
almost, of how we live.
I think of that idea of confession,
and of course,
that’s a thing that we integrate into
every one of our worship services,
is a moment of us telling the truth about who we are.
And part of confession is telling the truth about what we do.
And I think maybe one way to think of confession is that stuff that we know we do that we feel guilty about.
Like, for instance,
that time when you sort of told the truth,
when you doctored it a
little bit, and you feel bad about it.
You think your conscience is a little pinged,
and you think, “You know,
I wish I hadn’t
said that.” And you come to the moment of worship,
and you confess that thing that you did.
I think the Enneagram is interested in that in some level,
but on another level it’s not
interested in that at all.
It’s really interested in that moment in which you confess what may be a greater sin
of lying to yourself,
of concealing from yourself the reality of your sin when you’re
concerned with the stuff outside you instead of the stuff inside you.
And the reason I bring that up is to say,
“I can’t imagine working through this Lenten
journey with the Enneagram being a positive experience unless you’re willing to open yourself
up to some inner conversation.”
In other words, if you make this all about the stuff outside you,
the stuff that you do,
the stuff that maybe brings you guilt,
and you’re really unwilling to open up your heart
a little bit and to create enough space to really ask,
“What do I feel?
What drives me?
What motivates me?
How did I get here?”
If you’re not willing to ask those questions,
I think this may be a difficult journey or
at least one that doesn’t find much traction for you.
I suspect that would be true.
Is it fair to say,
Michael, that if you had a conversation with the Enneagram and you told the Enneagram,
“Here’s what I did.
Here’s how I failed in some way or here’s a thing that I regret,” the Enneagram would
be much less interested in that than asking you, “Why?
Why do you think you did that?
Why did you judge your neighbor?
Why did you undermine a conversation?
Why do you think you need to be the center of attention?”
I think getting behind the “what” to the motivations and the drives that push us in
those directions is the intent of a tool like this.
And it is, I think, somewhat outside of our Presbyterian conversation.
But it certainly falls within the parameters of a season like Lent and the kind of thing
that we say we are trying to do as we move together toward Easter.
And I think this could be challenging,
but I think when you explore and you find new
things about yourself, when you find new truths,
when you spring some old traps and you realize
that, “Hey, I’ve been stuck, but maybe I get a little unstuck,” there’s a great joy in that.
I think this isn’t going to be a six-week beating for people.
I think if they’ll hang in there,
yeah, there’ll be some spots in it that are a little uncomfortable.
But the path to growth is always through some moments that are uncomfortable for any of us.
The confession is always followed by the reminder of redemption.
And that’s a gift.
And I agree with you completely,
Clint, that my experience has been that there has been some
really significant self-reflection that’s happened for me.
And it’s all been done with this overwhelming sense of freedom,
because telling the truth
about yourself gives you an opportunity to move into a new place of healthiness if you’re able
to see that place that needs redemption.
And so I think it is no doubt a challenging task to be self-reflective as to who we are.
But that is core to the Christian gospel.
Absolutely.
The other thing I think adds an enjoyable and certainly an educational aspect is the interaction
between the numbers, between the types.
Even in the last week or so,
as you and I have visited from our unique perspectives,
and you realize how deeply you tend to be entrenched in your own way of seeing the world,
and then to look at it through the lens of another person and realize they
bring a completely different motivation and fear and expectation to the exact same situation.
And that can be frustrating,
but it can be eye-opening and can really,
I think, broaden our perspective,
our tolerance,
our ability to work together in community,
our compassion for one another,
our understanding of one another.
I found it really interesting to have those conversations back and forth with one another
and say, wait a minute,
this is what you see in this situation.
That’s where you come from.
Boy, I come from a totally different place.
And to be able to do that,
I think people will enjoy that and be better off for it.
Yeah, I agree completely.
In fact, there was once a time when I knew of someone who had taken a psychological
exam, one of those personality tests,
and it told him that he was an introvert and a
person who used his mind to make decisions, whatever, whatever,
and his spouse did the same.
And I laughed because I heard that in one of their conversations,
he ended up using that
personality test as a club to say,
I’m this and you’re this,
and so I think you need to do this
so that we can get along.
And I think if you come to the Enneagram hoping for that kind of club,
you’re going to find
that it clubs you first.
And I agree with you completely clean.
There’s so much compassion to be had for other people,
because if you can see the truth of yourself,
the truth of other people isn’t scary at all,
right?
Other people’s stuff isn’t your stuff.
And so if you’re able to engage and to say,
hey, you know what,
I’m in need of grace
because this thing lives in me.
Then when you look at others and see,
oh yeah, they’re in need of grace too,
I bet you’ll find
that you have way less compassion for yourself than for them,
because I think we tend to
not have much grace for our own stuff.
Yeah, I think that that’s certainly true, Michael.
I also think for whatever reason,
it can be possible for us to believe that everyone else
is trapped in their faults and lies and somehow we’re not,
as if we actually see reality
and others don’t.
And if you’re going to try and sell that to the Enneagram,
I’m just going to tell you good luck.
I don’t think it’s going to work very well.
I agree completely.
And it’s tough because we’ve not talked about the numbers and you’re not going to hear about
that yet in this podcast.
So it’s all the talk about this thing that we’re going to talk about.
But I do think there is some stuff that you can commit to in this Lenten season.
I really believe that because sometimes people will choose a Lenten practice,
like I’m going to avoid sugar this Lent and then you stick to that.
If you wanted to really throw yourself into this with us,
if you just wanted to trust us,
that this process may lead to some place of value,
maybe better than not choose to not
do something else.
It may be better this Lent to not refrain from something and make it something outside of
yourself.
Maybe it would be better to make a commitment this Lenten season to take time for prayer
and scripture and journaling and reflection.
Maybe make this an invitation for this 40-day journey to be an opportunity for you to really
be honest with yourself in God and to trust that God has something to show you about who you are
and even more so who you’ve been created to be in the best sense.
So that’s really just an invitation.
Maybe as you start thinking about this,
you don’t need any tools.
Maybe a notebook with some line paper that you want to write in.
Maybe a Bible, maybe just a calendar that you mark off time in your day to have a moment
for reflection and for quiet.
But this doesn’t need to be an incredibly complicated process.
But if you’re willing to invest in it,
I can tell you,
at least from my experience,
it’s already been incredibly formative.
Yeah, and as we move into Lent,
whether through the guidance of the Enneagram or just Lent itself,
I think a very valid place to start in our prayers is simply,
“God, help me be willing to
see some new truth about myself.
Give me the courage to admit that I am broken and maybe even to be open to see the ways in
which that’s true that I’m not yet aware of or that I have ignored or hidden myself from.
Confront me with some of the truth that I maybe try to hide from.”
I think if we can approach Lent in general and maybe this study on the Enneagram in particular
with that willingness, with that humility, there’s much to be gained here.
There’s much to be learned.
There is much to carry us toward Easter.
Absolutely.
So, Michael, where does someone start?
Say that they know this Enneagram thing is coming.
And what’s the first piece of reflection that you think?
The people who are listening,
where should they start before we get to the thing itself?
Yeah, that’s a great question.
Clint, I think you could go lots of ways.
I think one thing that may be helpful is for you to take a moment and appraise yourself.
Where am I?
How am I?
And who do I think I am?
And maybe those are really big questions.
That’s probably not where you start.
Maybe the first question you want to respond to,
Clint, is “What are my strengths and what are my weaknesses?”
I suspect that many of us will find one of those two aspects difficult to answer.
Maybe you’ll find the strength difficult.
Maybe you’ll find the weakness.
But I think it would be really helpful as you get ready to encounter the Enneagram,
to be honest about where you’re at right now.
As a snapshot in time,
what do I think I’ve been blessed with as a person, in my personality,
in my spiritual giftedness?
Maybe that is I feel like I am a person of faith.
It’s easy for me to believe in God.
I don’t struggle with doubts.
Or maybe you find it easy to serve and to look outside yourself.
Maybe you’ll find some strength that you think you would put as chief among them.
And then the same for weaknesses.
A place that you would admit and say,
“I think this is a thing that when I look at my story,
it comes back over and over and over again.”
Maybe it’s a temptation that you have.
Maybe it’s a personality thing that you wish you didn’t have.
Whatever that is,
if you could appraise yourself right now,
in this moment of time,
make a snapshot of it.
I think it will be very instructive when you bring that into the conversation with the Enneagram
to see if you see some things in the mirror of the Enneagram
that are different than where you started.
Yeah, I think that’s really good,
Michael.
I think that’s a good place to start in a personal inventory.
And not just what am I good at and what am I not good at,
but where am I strong?
Where do I sense weakness?
Not just I’m a good musician or I can’t sing,
but to really get in.
I’m impatient with people.
I want to get my way a lot.
I’m not good at bending.
I’m not good at compromising.
To really try to take a pretty honest inventory of some of the places that we struggle
and some of the places that we think we have giftedness to bring to the conversation.
One of my early experiences with the Enneagram has been the humbling reality that the same things
I tend to think of my strengths are in many ways my biggest weaknesses.
Because I use them at the wrong times.
I rely on them.
I keep myself from other things because of my strengths.
And so I think you give good counsel here.
If people could start with that kind of brainstorming,
that kind of reflecting on
strength and weakness, positive, negative.
Where do I feel good?
Where do I not feel good?
What situations am I comfortable in?
What situations am I uncomfortable in?
If we could begin to frame some of that conversation in positive, negative,
it might be a helpful precursor to the Enneagram conversations.
Absolutely.
And we’re going to provide resources over the course of this journey.
Things that we’ve read,
places that you can go online to get quick information on different
aspects of the Enneagram.
And so that you will find on the website.
You’ll find a link to that in the podcast here.
It’ll always be at FPC Spirit Lake dash Enneagram.
It’ll be easy to find.
I think one thing I would like to just caution you not to do right now,
because it would be unbelievably easy to do is go online and find the shortest survey to figure
out your Enneagram number.
And the reason why I don’t think that’s helpful is because the Enneagram is not
just about putting you in a camp.
It’s really about giving you an invitation to explore yourself.
And we’re going to,
in future talks, actually give some recommendations
on where to go and
what to do.
And there will be a time when maybe that’s the right thing for you if you’re not able
to make it to our Sunday gatherings.
But don’t rush out and do that quite yet.
Just be willing to live into the process a little bit.
And I think it’ll make more sense to you as we go.
100% agree, Michael.
Don’t try to start at the ending.
Trust the process a little bit.
Trust the discussion.
If at all possible,
come on Sunday evenings and let us walk together toward that discernment
rather than trying to get it done in five minutes.
The Enneagram is not a five minute internet kind of thing.
And I think that’s wise advice.
We’re glad that you have joined us for the version two of the Pastor Talk podcast.
We’re thrilled to start this new thing.
And we look forward to getting to both have conversations with you via the podcast and also
going into these group sessions on Sundays and having an opportunity to do something as a community.
So this is something similar to the 90 day New Testament and yet it’s new.
And I think that’s generative and exciting and interesting.
So we are glad that you’ve joined us for this.
We truly pray that you will open yourself up and be willing to take this Lenten journey with us.
And I think I can speak for Clint and say we know that God shows up in some miraculous ways.
And I hope that we not only learn something about ourselves,
but grow as a community of faith because of this tool.
So we’re grateful for your time with us.
We look forward to seeing you again in our next podcast,
which we’ll release in just a week.