In this thought-provoking discussion, Clint Loveall and Michael Gewecke delve into the fifth and sixth commandments, exploring the shift from religious relationships to human and societal relationships. They examine the significance of honoring parents, the complexities of hierarchical relationships, and the theological and practical implications of these commandments. They also explore the commandment to not murder and the vast and diverse history of reading that commandment throughout Christian history. Join them as they navigate the depths of family dynamics, societal respect, and the moral responsibility we owe to one another.
Feel free to share this with anyone who you think might be interested in growing deeper in their faith and Christian discipleship.
Pastor Talk Quick Links:
- Learn more about the Pastor Talk series and view our previous studies at https://pastortalk.co
- Subscribe to get the Pastor Talk episodes via podcast, email and much more! https://pastortalk.co#subscribe
- Questions or ideas? Connect with us! https://pastortalk.co#connect
- Interested in joining us for worship on Sunday at 8:50am? Join us at https://fpcspiritlake.org/stream
Watch, Listen, & Read the Full Transcript
00:00:00:03 – 00:00:25:03
Clint Loveall
Tonight we move on to our next two commandments, Commandments five and six. And there is a shift that’s happening here. If you remember a couple of weeks go in the introduction, we talked about the commandments as having two tables or in the old language, two tablets, commandments, one through four are considered the first table and five through ten are considered the second table.
00:00:25:08 – 00:01:01:06
Clint Loveall
The first table have to do with our religious relationships, our relationship with God. And then the second table has to do with our human and societal relationships. And so tonight, as we move to Commandment five and six, we move to that second table. What does it look like to be connected? The covenant relationship inside the circle of human beings, both in our in this case, our family and then our society, and significantly by those commandments.
00:01:01:15 – 00:01:23:28
Clint Loveall
And I want to be careful how I describe this, because I don’t want to give the sense that one commandment is more important than the other. But it is generally thought that the second table of commandments are organized by impact on society or by severity. So do not kill is above, do not call it that kind of idea.
00:01:23:33 – 00:02:01:55
Clint Loveall
And interestingly enough, that second table begins with honor. Your father and your mother. And so the idea there is that there’s something fundamental in this commandment for God’s people. There is something at stake significantly, and that this commandment has a tremendous impact on how people live in a community group or in a society. And just we’ll come back to this later.
00:02:02:00 – 00:02:26:17
Clint Loveall
But the full commandment is honor your father and mother that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. So this is on the way to the promised Land, and it anticipates a movement of the people into the promised land. There’s also a slight difference of translation in these both in this commandment between Deuteronomy and Exodus.
00:02:26:22 – 00:02:59:49
Clint Loveall
But we’ll talk about that down the road. It is interesting, again, that before we get to the do’s and don’ts for society, we have a commandment about being family because so much of who we are and how we function in the world we inherit from our upbringing, from our our family structure, for better or worse. And so it is intriguing, I think, that before God gets to build murder and don’t lie, don’t steal and all of that stuff.
00:02:59:54 – 00:03:34:58
Clint Loveall
There is a commandment about the whole. There is a commandment about familial relationships and honor in those whose job it is to teach you and raise you. And the word honor here is an interesting word. It literally means in the Hebrew, it means a weight or a burden. So it’s something placed upon you. It gets a tongue. And there are some words in Hebrew that when you look at the way those words are translated, you get a column of options.
00:03:34:58 – 00:04:02:34
Clint Loveall
And this is one of them. It’s translated rich. It’s translated grievous, respected. This is the word used a pharaoh when his heart is hardened. And the idea is that it places a burden, that it’s more of what’s deserved. So you’re weighed down either with honor and respect. If you deserve that, or punishment and ridicule if you deserve that.
00:04:02:36 – 00:04:32:01
Clint Loveall
And so it’s a very interesting word as it is translated here. Honor A, what is do you take care of to care for? This is a martin Luther quote and we’re Presbyterians. But every once in a while, Martin Luther says something that we should know. So I’ll give him some credit here. Luther wrote this. It’s a greater thing to honor than it is to love.
00:04:32:06 – 00:05:19:18
Clint Loveall
Honor includes love, but also self-discipline, humility and respect. It requires us not only to address them in friendship and with reverence, but above all, to relate to them from both the heart and the body as to show them that one thinks much of them and regards them as next to God. So there is this idea of hierarchy for Luther and for the church, and this is where I think the conversation has some depth, because Luther goes on to point out that this is not based on a parent’s inherent worth.
00:05:19:22 – 00:05:54:27
Clint Loveall
Luther himself had a pretty rough experience as a child. And so Luther also writes that parenting is an ordination to responsibility. And so Luther not only has an expectation of how children’s children behave toward their parents, but he understands there is a responsibility of how parents behave toward their children. And there are, of course, those situations where parents don’t deserve much honor.
00:05:54:32 – 00:06:25:57
Clint Loveall
If they are abusive, if they’re offensive, if they keep us from growth in the faith, if they are not moral, not ethical, that that honor in those situations doesn’t simply mean to go along and it doesn’t mean to pretend and pat them on the back like they’re good if they’re not. And so parents are to aspire to be worthy of honor and children are to aspire to honor their parents.
00:06:26:02 – 00:06:51:02
Clint Loveall
And I know that this can be a difficult conversation because the wounds of our childhood are the ones that run the deepest. I never thought I would quote this book, but some of you may know the book, The Shack. Don’t read it if you have it. But there is a line in it that has always stuck with me.
00:06:51:07 – 00:07:31:27
Clint Loveall
It says, I suppose that since most of our hurts come through relationships, so too will our healing. And in those moments where family life is difficult, this commandment should not be seen as a burden, but an opportunity to work toward those things like forgiveness, Those things like support and understanding. But it may not mean and I would argue that it certainly doesn’t mean tolerate indecent behavior from your parents or even perhaps worse, transfer that on to your own children.
00:07:31:31 – 00:07:49:37
Clint Loveall
I think that is honoring God has to come before honoring parents. And if parents don’t deserve honor, then we’d have to have a conversation. So this is a general kind of commandment and one that we could split some hairs on in in tough situation.
00:07:49:42 – 00:08:09:38
Michael Gewecke
This commandment occupies the position that it does in the two books. I think for a couple specific reasons. And one is just to be very practical. It transitions from our ideal with our relationship with God to our relationship with physical people, our family, and the structure of that. And that makes sense. Think about the people to whom this is given.
00:08:09:43 – 00:08:32:40
Michael Gewecke
An ancient people who are going to be going into this land. In fact, we have that here. This idea that their lives may be long in the land in which they’re going. And the idea of honoring your father and mother in that context is essential to life. It creates order and structure so that you have a society that can do the things that you need to do.
00:08:32:54 – 00:08:53:35
Michael Gewecke
Certainly to set up camp and to have the food that you need and the order with which they would need to do it, but also the requirement of being able to deal with distributing land and all of these kinds of things that we’re going to see happen in the later books as Israel starts to really take hold of that land.
00:08:53:40 – 00:09:20:49
Michael Gewecke
The idea of a strong family unit is an important part of that. So there’s a real physical aspect to this. There’s also, I think, a real, as we’ve already intuited in the relationship between God and humanity, that there’s real theological meaning in that. And that bridge is also happening with this commandment, because as we are called to honor on father and mother, the commentators make very clear point.
00:09:20:49 – 00:09:56:31
Michael Gewecke
The reformers were very clear to name that there is one other person that you call father besides your biological father. That’s the one that Jesus taught us to pray to our father, who art in heaven. So therefore, there’s theological significance about this commandment, because the people who we call mother and father represent, even if in small measure they represent a relationship with a heavenly Father and not perfectly, and they’re broken and they have all of those elements.
00:09:56:40 – 00:10:25:00
Michael Gewecke
But there is a spiritual element to this command, and that is certainly where a lot of reformed theologians would dig in. And they have given us a real legacy of thought that we’re going to engage here quickly with tonight. But I do think that it does for us today the very practical sense, if it has real physical societal impact for the Israelites and it teaches us something about God.
00:10:25:04 – 00:10:55:01
Michael Gewecke
I think that it gives us modern Christians a lot to wrestle with as we see our culture in general dealing with the question of family in some really generative and interesting ways. People are asking questions about what these relationships look like and what is inside a well-founded society should be. And the commandment like this doesn’t answer those questions for Christians necessarily, but it means that we need to care about it.
00:10:55:03 – 00:11:06:31
Michael Gewecke
It’s something built into God’s intended relationship for us that we have good family, societal relationships, that matters to God. And so therefore, for Christians, it should matter to us.
00:11:06:36 – 00:11:53:36
Clint Loveall
And probably along those lines are our people. It’s interesting when we hear the commandment, we almost think exclusively of families. I mean, literally the words father and mother. What is intriguing is that those who have read this and thought about this and studied this have expanded far beyond that and so are reformed. People use this commandment to talk about how we show respect in society, how we show respect to elders, how we show respect to bosses, to leaders, to the elderly, how we show respect and deference to one another in a society.
00:11:53:36 – 00:12:18:52
Clint Loveall
And so while we tend to take in the modern world the modern reading, we tend to take these words literally. Our father and mother, the reformers, expanded this commandment greatly and talked about how it is that we relate to people. And I want to be we want to be careful with this language because it can be very problematic.
00:12:18:57 – 00:12:54:15
Clint Loveall
But they live in a hierarchical world. So the conversation is how do we treat people both above us and below us? And the language they use for that is uncomfortable? Well, I think they talk about our superiors and our inferiors, but they don’t mean that morally. They mean that in terms of livelihood, education, status and position, that they mean that sort of on the ladder of society.
00:12:54:19 – 00:13:29:40
Clint Loveall
Some people are higher than we are and some people are lower. And what our obligations in both directions and what I think is interesting about that is most people don’t hear that in the commandment. But if you look at what Westminster says about this one, they say more about that really than about family relationships. The family relationships are sort of assumed, but they really go in on this idea of how do we show respect and honor, etc., in the classes of our society.
00:13:29:52 – 00:13:59:49
Clint Loveall
And I think that’s a challenge for us because I think we often don’t think in those terms, though most of us are, you know, in most of us are probably done with the front half of our life. Most of us in here, I’ve got to make 110, I guess. So, you know, it’s reasonable that we’ve got half probably finished.
00:13:59:54 – 00:14:25:51
Clint Loveall
If if you’re my you know, I remember and this was a common this wasn’t unusual. I remember being told, you don’t speak when adults are speaking. I didn’t always listen to that and always follow that. But that was the clear expectation. There are adults here. You don’t do that. You don’t talk back to teachers, which again, happened occasionally.
00:14:26:04 – 00:15:03:29
Clint Loveall
But the point was those things were always expected. And there were times when adults may have been in the wrong and the counsel from my family was still a doesn’t matter. They are your piano teacher or Sunday school teacher or whatever you say. Yes, ma’am. Yes, sir. Keep your mouth shut. Now, that’s not always the best counsel, but it does show this kind of undergirding idea of respect and how at times we’ve tried to fold that into society.
00:15:03:34 – 00:15:12:25
Clint Loveall
It’s just that most of us wouldn’t think about that here in this in this commandment. But our reformed people very much did.
00:15:12:30 – 00:15:43:51
Michael Gewecke
This is built upon another concept that I think if we hear it rightly, makes us a little uncomfortable, especially as 21st century Americans, because ultimately the commandment is saying, you owe something to your parents, to your mother and father. You owed them honor. And that gets transferred through the reformed thought to all superiors. So the question becomes, what do you owe to those ahead of you and what do you owe to those behind you?
00:15:43:53 – 00:16:16:39
Michael Gewecke
That’s not great terminology. Bear with me. They don’t mean that people are actually ahead or behind. They just be. We have different vocations and roles. So if your role is over some people then you are responsible. You owe them that you’re looking out for their best interest. And likewise, if there are people who are overseeing you in your vocational role that their job is to be, look, yeah, it goes both ways and that becomes very, I think, difficult for us to engage with in a secular society.
00:16:16:44 – 00:16:37:03
Michael Gewecke
Because think of this with me for just a moment. If a Christian is having a conversation with a non-Christian and you’re talking about what we owe to one another, you could get on the same page about humanity. But even the secular person can say, Well, all humans are living. So since they’re living, we should treat each other nicely.
00:16:37:03 – 00:16:58:10
Michael Gewecke
We should. We should we should try to take care of the other people, because as long as they’re a human, they’re worthy of some of our respect. That’s a great perspective. Our Christian comes at that from a very different perspective of Christians who believe that you were made in God’s image. Each and every one of the people in this room, we believe, are made in the image of God.
00:16:58:15 – 00:17:17:34
Michael Gewecke
And so we also believe that every person out of this room is made in the image of God. So when we answer the question, why should you care for the other? What do you owe to the other? The answer is, I owe to the other. What God tells me is owed to that person because they’re an image bearer of the God who made them.
00:17:17:43 – 00:17:42:58
Michael Gewecke
They’re a child of God, right? So the commandment we’re going to get to do not murder follows this command on purpose. Why you don’t murder someone. May that the image of God, what you owe them is whatever you can do to further their life in the best sense possible. What you owe them is that in your leadership over them, they flourish as best as you’re able.
00:17:43:03 – 00:18:03:27
Michael Gewecke
And so Christians come to the this conversation about owing at least the reformed tradition. We talk about this idea of what we owe one another is is the thing that we owe them because of who God made them to be. And that’s different from a worldly perspective. It. If you want to make that mean source, share that in a really simple way.
00:18:03:32 – 00:18:46:16
Michael Gewecke
When the school wants to talk to kids about not being bullies, they say we shouldn’t be bullies. Why? Because that’s not nice. Christians would say you shouldn’t be a bully because you’re bullying God’s child. That’s a radically different understanding of the nature of the problem. And then it leads us into different ways of talking about the solution. And so what we owe to one another is part of this commandment, because ultimately mother and father are creatures of God, and we are to learn in our relationship with them the proper way to relate to God himself through their imperfect nature.
00:18:46:21 – 00:19:19:35
Clint Loveall
I want to read just a little this. And again, I certainly want you to listen to these words through the lens of father and mother. Whether whichever side of that you have or haven’t lived on. But also, I want you to hear it through the lens of a boss, an older person, a younger person, whatever else, the inferior superior relationship might be the above and below kind of language.
00:19:19:39 – 00:19:53:45
Clint Loveall
So here is the first one, and I’m not going to talk about the required because you kind of get them. I’m going to read the sins. What are the sins of inferiors against their superiors? And and by hearing the sins, you’ll get the what is required. The sins of inferiors toward their superiors are the neglect of duties required toward them, envying contempt of rebellion against their persons and places in their lawful councils.
00:19:53:45 – 00:20:17:46
Clint Loveall
Commands in correction, cursing, mocking and all such scandalous carriage as proves a shame and a dishonor to them and their government. So again, we have here the idea that these are not simply individuals. These are the structures of society.
00:20:17:51 – 00:20:41:22
Clint Loveall
This is not I I’m pointing this at nobody. But imagine the culprit level that we have seen from Christians over the last few years in how they talk about government leaders. And I don’t care what side of politics you’re on. I don’t care if you’re left and you don’t like the right or right and you don’t like the left.
00:20:41:27 – 00:21:19:27
Clint Loveall
We we constantly see cursing, mocking, contempt directed at those who are our superiors and our people would have some questions about that. Now, do those who govern have to govern honorably? Yes. Should they be held accountable when they don’t? Yes, of course. But how we treat, act and speak of those above us are people think fall under this commandment.
00:21:19:31 – 00:21:38:40
Clint Loveall
Now, we might not want to think that, but it is an interesting I find it challenging when you expand this commandment. It it starts to get tricky in a hurry. I think.
00:21:38:45 – 00:22:10:25
Michael Gewecke
So I want to quick make sure that we all feel comfortable with how we get here, because this isn’t just the reformers doing theology that this is in your Bible, actually. If you want to look up later, Ephesians chapter six, I’m going to read you just a little bit of this, but we have a quotation of this commandment in the New Testament Children obey your parents and the Lord for this is right on the your father and mother, which is the first commandment with a promise so that that may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth.
00:22:10:30 – 00:22:36:12
Michael Gewecke
And then here’s what immediately follows it up. Listen to this. Fathers do not exasperate your children. Instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord. Isn’t that incredible? The commandment to children is immediately followed by commandment to the parents of what they should not do. Do not exasperate your children. So there’s immediately a correction to that and that this is going to get a little uncomfortable.
00:22:36:23 – 00:23:06:52
Michael Gewecke
But it’s important that we wade into this. The very next word after to fathers is slaves obey your earthly masters and then just a paragraph later. And masters treat your slaves in the same way. So the New Testament, we very clearly have the same interpretation that the commandment to father to honor father and mother is the very commandment for how we behave in our social, organized, even civic and business relationships.
00:23:06:57 – 00:23:36:12
Michael Gewecke
And and so this idea of then turning to like where Paul says that we should live peaceably among all men, we can see very clearly how the early church had this understanding that how we treat those above us and how we speak of those in whatever role that they occupy is a way of practicing how we treat God himself and the way in which we’re seeking to try to be the kind of people who revere and honor God with our lives.
00:23:36:14 – 00:23:41:45
Michael Gewecke
So it’s a way of pointing us in our social and governmental and societal relationships.
00:23:41:58 – 00:24:39:31
Clint Loveall
So then let’s flip then for a moment and here is the the next well, it’s not the next, but a few questions down. This is where Westminster goes. What are the sins of the superior? So now we’re thinking either about those who are above us or how we treat those who are underneath of us. The sins of the superiors are besides the neglect of duties required of them, an inordinate seeking of themselves, their own glory is profit or pleasure, commanding things, unlawful or not, in the power of inferiors to perform or counseling, encouraging or favoring that in which is evil, dissuading discouraging, just countenancing them in which is in that which is good.
00:24:39:36 – 00:25:13:27
Clint Loveall
Correcting them unduly careless. Exposing or leaving of them to wrong temptation and danger, provoking them to wrath, or any way dishonoring themselves or lessening their authority by an unjust, indiscreet, rigorous or remiss behavior. So again, our people, when they talked about what are our responsibilities to those underneath of us, our children, or those who work for us or whatever that relationship might be, asking them to do something they’re not capable of.
00:25:13:31 – 00:25:43:12
Clint Loveall
That’s on us. That’s a fault. Putting them in situations that they are exposed to temptation. It is the superiors task to navigate the moral situation of an inferior. Right. And if you’ve raised children, you know that. hey, can I go to this place? What’s going on there? Doesn’t sound like a good idea. Sounds like a place where you have lots of opportunities to make poor decisions.
00:25:43:17 – 00:26:15:13
Clint Loveall
Maybe you shouldn’t do that. We navigate that. But this not only has inside the house consequences, it has inside society consequences. And so there is a balance. The idea is in many ways like marriage, that there is a give and take and that we need not worry about such titles as superior inferior If both are living out their Christian duty and their Christian obligation toward one another.
00:26:15:18 – 00:26:19:41
Clint Loveall
We wouldn’t have to worry about being taken advantage of.
00:26:19:46 – 00:26:39:34
Michael Gewecke
Well, just very briefly, I don’t want to we need to be moving on. But I don’t want to leave this on the table. This really generated a lot of thought for me this week. And so I want to share with you. I was just recently at a gathering of pastors here locally, and those gatherings always are thought provoking in lots of different ways.
00:26:39:39 – 00:27:16:22
Michael Gewecke
And this particular command from Westminster. Question 132 is about what are the sins of equals, people who are responsible to each other. This is I’ve just it’s very short. The sins of equals are besides the neglect of the duties that were required for one another, the things we owe one another. Here they are. The undervaluing of the worth of the other person, and being their gifts, grieving at their own advancement or prosperity and usurping preeminence over one another.
00:27:16:27 – 00:27:43:01
Michael Gewecke
Wolf, all those are strong words that we could all use a dose of every day. Someone else’s advancement does not detract from you. Someone else’s gift does not take from yours, someone else’s moment. And time has nothing to say with the gifts that you’ve been given. And this is a real temptation, I think, of leaders, is we and I mean that in every context.
00:27:43:01 – 00:28:24:36
Michael Gewecke
I mean leaders in the home. I think leaders in our community, leaders who are volunteering every time that we’re engaging with one another, we are given an opportunity to see God’s good works at work and another to celebrate that or to see that from a negative slant and bend it towards ourselves. And I think that this commandment, as the reformers clearly saw it, is an invitation not just to honor father and mother, although that’s the clear, literal implication, but also to learn what it means to treat others rightly to all of them, what it means to be at the love and care of a child of God, and to then proceed from that.
00:28:24:41 – 00:29:10:07
Clint Loveall
We’re going to move on. Then our next commandment number six. We again think here of society and the building of a stable place where people can live out their life and their faith in covenant and in safety. And so we get to this this very important commandment, do not kill three words in English, two words plus a an article, a letter in Hebrew sounds so simple, but there may not be any commandment that has generated more amendments and discussions and qualifications.
00:29:10:12 – 00:29:45:27
Clint Loveall
Historically, we start with Do not kill, which sounds pretty easy. But then we have What about capital punishment? What about suicide? What about war? What about soldiers? What about armies? What about governments in the modern world? What about abortion? We have struggled with this command to know what it does and doesn’t say in the extent of society. The King James version says you shall not kill.
00:29:45:32 – 00:30:18:11
Clint Loveall
And most people I’m making some generalities here, but bear with me. Most people who say they take the Bible literally read or prefer the King James version, but they don’t take this literally. B Because the more conservative a Christian is, ironically, the more chance they’re for capital punishment, the more they’re okay with soldiers. In fact, they may celebrate military strength.
00:30:18:16 – 00:30:51:33
Clint Loveall
And so though the King James version says kill even literalists don’t take that literally. And most modern translations have substituted the word murder because it and it implies it implies a more personal relationship, a one on one, not governmental or societal, but relational word. Some translations may even use the word slay, which is probably along the lines of the Hebrew there.
00:30:51:37 – 00:31:26:40
Clint Loveall
But every one of these instances stresses the idea of the taking of a life. That’s the idea of the verb. There thou shall not take life. Now the problem or one of the problems with this commandment, Jesus said something about it. When Jesus says something about it usually makes things worse. And that’s what he did here. He said, Yeah, you don’t kill.
00:31:26:47 – 00:31:57:20
Clint Loveall
I tell you, if you’re angry at your brother, your sister, if you harbor anger in your heart, you have murdered them. You are guilty of murder. So Jesus equates to kill with through hate or be angry to cut off another one or wish ill towards another one. So it’s not only that which takes a life, it that which severs relationship.
00:31:57:25 – 00:32:09:33
Clint Loveall
And now you take a commandment that seem not that hard to follow. And it just got really tricky. Got really big.
00:32:09:37 – 00:32:46:34
Michael Gewecke
And then we keep and it goes even deeper because Westminster is going to gloss this commandment this way. It’s going to say whatever tends to the destruction of the life of any whatever tends towards the destruction of life of any, and that they take that in some really wide sweeping ways, because by that standard, this could potentially be one of the biggest commands that we have, especially when you think we started with Thou Shalt Not murder.
00:32:46:39 – 00:33:12:00
Michael Gewecke
You would think we would just say, That’s but nice. Glad to have you here. Night. We’ll see you all later. Right? That’s clear. It’s practical. But if you take Westminster seriously, the things that caused destruction in the lives of others, then it causes us to ask questions about how do we live our life in such a way that tends towards the the furtherance of the life of others?
00:33:12:12 – 00:33:36:33
Michael Gewecke
And in what ways do our lives get in the way of other people’s lives? Continue to grow. So things in Westminster that come out, things that might cause injury to other people or things that might put us in a position to do harm to others. One of the ones I did find very interesting was the immoderate use of meat.
00:33:36:37 – 00:33:59:58
Michael Gewecke
Sorry for all of you smokers out there at grill lovers. No, but the idea of of wanton excess. Right. In the ancient world, meat was a thing of high dollar and high value. So the idea of are you in moderately pleasuring yourself with things that that is actively going to do harm to your neighbor if you have does it take from them?
00:34:00:03 – 00:34:25:50
Michael Gewecke
And that includes drinks. The idea that maybe in in moderation you are going to do or treat others in the way that they should be. Then it goes on revenge and the anger. And then ultimately, right before the giving of the Ten Commandments to. You Deuteronomy? One of the things that God says as a preamble to the commandment is they got desires for the people to have a long life.
00:34:25:55 – 00:34:50:03
Michael Gewecke
So what’s interesting is here we have a commandment that forbids you from taking someone’s life. Why? Because that keeps them from enjoying the gift that God intended for them to have. If they’re made in the image of God, God desires for them in His image, to have a long life, to live a prosperous life. And and murder will keep that from happening.
00:34:50:04 – 00:34:58:26
Michael Gewecke
So therefore, is not an action which is is given to us to do it, that the taking of life wantonly.
00:34:58:28 – 00:35:19:24
Clint Loveall
Now, there’s also some language in the New Testament don’t take revenge. That’s up to God. God will make those decisions. God will act on your behalf. You don’t have the authority to do that. And again, this is one of those commandments. I bet most of us, when we read the commandments and we feel convicted by them, this is probably one we go by and feel kind of safe.
00:35:19:24 – 00:35:59:13
Clint Loveall
Right? We haven’t murdered anybody. Not seem to have a wanted do now and then. Well, I’ve never, never done it. But what does it mean to live in a way that is life giving towards others and not life detracting? And that doesn’t mean just not doing wrong to others. It means failing to do right. Again, read a little Luther this week and Luther said, If you see someone hungry and you could have fed them, then you starve them.
00:35:59:18 – 00:36:30:48
Clint Loveall
And if you see someone naked, unclothed, and you could have clothed them, then you let him free. In other words, what you didn’t do to make someone’s life better, you are guilty of as if you were responsible for it. Because God calls us to care for others and this is to. You know, again, our Presbyterian people, we’ve tended to governmental wise, this commandment.
00:36:31:01 – 00:37:00:04
Clint Loveall
We tend to talk about it as the power of the state and rulers that they are vested with the authority to take life and the order of of taking life in criminal considerations. The idea of a just war that’s a reformed idea, the idea that there are causes that are justly pursued. And if that means taking life, you know, our own guy, John Calvin, once sentenced the heretic to be burned.
00:37:00:09 – 00:37:36:16
Clint Loveall
So he’s got do not kill and he burned a guy or had him burned. He didn’t I don’t think he did it, but he didn’t stop it. And I don’t know what Luther would say about that, because Luther was not big on heretics either. But this gets this gets mercy. We’ve tended to neglect the other side. That is our responsibility to protect and help and intervene and I think this is a very interesting time in the world to be asking about this commandment.
00:37:36:21 – 00:38:09:06
Clint Loveall
We live in a global society. We live in a first world economy, a capitalism, a marketplace economy. So what does it mean to live our life in a way that doesn’t harm the lives of others? How many of you like cashews you be? I’m I hope I’m not about to ruin this for you. I, I, I’m a cashew fan.
00:38:09:10 – 00:38:47:46
Clint Loveall
I order cashew chicken when we get Chinese food, i.e., cashews. The trail mix, the cashews. Always disappear. First gain whatever. Then the minerals. But the cashews go first. Then we know anything about cashews. So they grow in these little pods. And those pods are acidic. If you tear them open, they burn your hands. So the primary cashew market is in places where there are little villages where women with old gloves and bread sacks on their hands break open cashew ice for very little money.
00:38:47:51 – 00:39:09:49
Clint Loveall
After somebody climbs trees and gets them, they end up with chemical burns all up and down their hands and their arms so that they can then pass the cashew on to people who make a lot more out of the cashews so we can complain about them being $4 a pound or whatever they are. Yeah, way more than that.
00:39:09:54 – 00:39:40:11
Clint Loveall
But that money isn’t getting to the people who are burning their hands, picking our cashew. So what does it mean to live my life in a way that doesn’t detract from the life of someone else in an economy, in a society that’s easy relationally. I mean, it’s not easy, but it’s maybe simpler. If I want to talk about our relationship or your relationships, we could maybe figure that out.
00:39:40:12 – 00:40:07:05
Clint Loveall
I think it’s a very difficult moment for us to dive into. What does it mean societally? What does it mean that we live in a place with a lot of haves when there are so many places in the world that are have nots? I think this is the commandment, ironically enough, that through the lens of Westminster would ask us that question.
00:40:07:10 – 00:40:37:52
Michael Gewecke
I think one way to frame this is that this is a commandment that in its spiritual interpretation is a commandment of orientation. So if you at the sound of my voice say to yourself, I have not murdered any one commandment, that’s good. Let’s move to the next step. And that is, are you oriented to the furthering life giving work of God in every other person that you can?
00:40:37:57 – 00:40:57:32
Michael Gewecke
And that orientation is going to lead you in lots of different ways. But we live in a world which is very skeptical. We live in a world which is very negative. We live in a world where the thing that trends is the thing about can you believe that this person did this crazy off the wall thing? I did instead of Christians buying into that?
00:40:57:32 – 00:41:30:09
Michael Gewecke
I think that this commandment does call us in all of the complexities of economy and government policies and all those things that that are quite frankly, above my pay grade, that the thing that this commandment calls us towards is it may not give you a specific outlier. What should do with each one of those things? It does say you should always be oriented to the thing that helps another person thrive, because when you do that, you’re then that person allowing God’s image to be seen more clearly that that’s what God wants for that child of God.
00:41:30:23 – 00:42:05:22
Michael Gewecke
And so therefore, that should be your goal in every situation. As far as that concerns you. And I think I just would like to leave you with the question, if that’s what we as a church and I mean that not just in the sense of First Presbyterian Church, but like if the American church was known for concerted and energetic attempts at every turn to try to further life in other people, how different of a conversation that would be in the public square than the ones that so often happen.
00:42:05:27 – 00:42:31:46
Michael Gewecke
And I realize that Presbyterians aren’t generally the ones on the street corner waving floppy Bibles. I understand that. But there is a way in which every time we enter out into public life and we advocate for and push for and encourage others to to create systems that are fair and to create a world which helps others live into their God image ness.
00:42:31:51 – 00:42:50:58
Michael Gewecke
When we’ve done that, we’re in some way living into this moment and and saying that doesn’t get rid of the complexities of that. Right? We all know that. We all know that navigating this world, we have to be weighed with with what’s in the best interest of what we can do and whether government we realize that this is big.
00:42:51:03 – 00:43:16:14
Michael Gewecke
But I think one of the mistakes of maturing that you are the mistakes of having a device, a smartphone that connects you to the world is we can become overwhelmed by the complexity of the world and therefore not do good where we can and to whatever extent it is able to you, our forbearers would tell us we are we owe to the other to encourage life in them.
00:43:16:19 – 00:43:21:56
Michael Gewecke
And that is a good orientation for us to seek to have.
00:43:22:01 – 00:43:49:37
Clint Loveall
I hope there’s been a take away a again, I think some of the wisdom of our mothers and fathers in the faith, I think is helpful because it does expand our idea far past the simple words that might be written on the page and point us toward the idea of what is it God might ask of us through those things.
00:43:49:42 – 00:44:18:34
Clint Loveall
And I think again, these two commandments are remarkably I mean, honor, your father and mother can be challenging for sure, but I think we find that as we dig into these, they’re both deeper than they might appear on the surface. And they take us in some challenging and hopefully exciting and life giving direction. So thank you all for being here.
00:44:18:39 – 00:44:40:28
Clint Loveall
Thanks again for food. I think the sign up is over there. I don’t know what it looks like, but again, thanks for those to make sure that we continue to get a chance to have these meals. We’re we’re very, very grateful. Hey, we want to thank you for listening to this broadcast. We’re grateful for the support and the connections, the relationships we get to make through some of these offerings.
00:44:40:33 – 00:44:52:41
Clint Loveall
We hope that they’ve been helpful. We know that there are lots of choices that you have, lots of things you can listen to. We want to make you aware of some of what we’re doing, and we greatly appreciate you being a part of it.
00:44:52:46 – 00:45:11:38
Michael Gewecke
Absolutely. We want to just thank you for being one of our audio podcast listeners. It’s amazing to have you with us in the midst of our conversations. Of course, I hope you know that you can find the whole archive of all of these conversations at Pastor Taco. We would love for you to join us there. You can find options for subscribing by email.
00:45:11:51 – 00:45:45:16
Michael Gewecke
You can easily share things there with other people who you think might appreciate recordings like this. And of course, we just want to welcome you. If you’re ever interested in joining us for the video podcast, you can do that on YouTube. It is YouTube.com slash AFP, PC Spirit Lake. There you can comment and engage with us or if you would prefer to do that without going to YouTube, you can actually just click the link in the description of, this podcast where you will be able to send us form and information and reach out to us.
00:45:45:27 – 00:45:54:32
Michael Gewecke
We’d love to hear from you and engage in conversation with you. Thanks again for taking time to be with us. We look forward to our next conversation and can’t wait to see you then.